Bank charges fight goes on

There is good news for all of those current account customers trying to get their bank to refund unauthorised overdraft charges.

A legal test case that caused bank charges complaints to be thrown out of the courts has been settled.

The case, which we revealed a week ago in Money Mail, was against Lloyds TSB brought by a customer trying to reclaim thousands of pounds of bank charges and was scheduled to be heard by London Mercantile Court.

This would have provided grounds for a precedent that other similar bank charges cases being heard by the small claims court could have followed. As a result many were thrown out or stalled.

However, after a chat with a spokesman for Lloyds TSB I discover that they have now paid back the dipsuted charges. She says that Lloyds had not been aware that its legal argument was being considered as a test case.

The case passed on from the small claims court to the higher Mercantile Court because it had been so technical.

This had alerted other regional courts where judges had decided to put claims to refund bank charges on hold.

However, after the case had been transferred to the Mercantile Court it was settled by Lloyds. Now all the other cases that had been delayed by judges have been . Many have now been settled by the banks.

It means that no bank has yet defended a court claim from a customer seeking to have bank charges refunded.

I passed this good news on to Marc Gander, from bank charges website Consumer Action Group. This group has done some sterling work in helping current account customers understand their legal rights when it comes to unauthorised charges.

Mr Gander says: 'I think that this goes to show that the banks really don't want to go to court and are in disarray.'

And he could well be right. During our campaign Fair Play on Charges we have entered into a bit of a circular conversation with banks.

Every time I ask them about charges they reply that they are part of the terms and conditions of the account. But that doesn't mean they are fair, I reply. That doesn't mean that they reflect the true cost of operating the unauthorised overdraft.

And you can guess what the response is. 'They are part of the terms and conditions of the account.'

And so it goes on. I'm sure you'll be hearing plenty more on this from me....

James Coney, Money Mail

- For a full list of Bank Charges stories click here or see here...

• Campaign: Fair play on bank charges
• How to reclaim bank charges
• How to reclaim credit card charges
• How to reclaim payment protection insurance premiums (on loans and credit cards)
• Analysis: Is this the end of free banking

Comments

[Anne Bateson]

I've just received papers asking for the case to be struck out (on a technicality) and also because "the claimant has no reasonable grounds for bringing a claim against the defendant and the claimant has no real prospect of success" - Lloyds TSB
Needles to say I am continuing with my battle. Please, please, please, keep up the good work you are doing on behalf of all of us

[kim Alsford]

What do you do when a bank completely ignores your letters? My daughter has requested a list of all penalties imposed on her account and given the statutory 40 days but has had no reply. We then wrote another letter giving them 14 days to provide the information requested and that letter has also been ignored. My daughter has moved a lot and does not have bank statements available, how do we find this information if Lloyds bank won't reply?

[Tracy Brown]

ive always had problems with LLoyds TSB, but always assumed that this was all my own fault, so back in November 2005, i contacted their customer help line. i shared with them the growing bank charges that were added to my account, averaging between £125 and £275, over a period of 4 months, they agreed to an overdraft of £800, this was then supposed to help me sort out my financial difficulties, i also asked if it were possible to put aside the charges, to be able to assist my problems further, they said this could not be done, so the bank charges were still applied to my bank account, this was therefore a contradiction of the offer of help.

over the last year i have paid my over draft back at a rate of £40 a month, and this month will be the final payment, would i still be able to reclaim back all the charges over the last six years? Information would be greatly appreciated.

Tracy Brown

[Si Sherry]

I've lived abroad for the last 2+years working as a consultant, and due to the nature of my job can't guarantee when I'll be paid. I have a graduate loan with Lloyds-TSB, but they don't care about my situation-I've spoken to countless advisors to explain the situation, and generally they've been ok with it. (It must be a miserable place to work)

Last Friday I was told that my o/d was illegal, by someone who obviously had delusions and that it had been removed "toot sweet". Great, so I was paying 7 squid for a "SELECT" (read selected for stupidity) account, and close to 4 pounds (both per month) for Pinnacle insurance, both recommended to me by members of LTSB as essential just before I moved to sunny France, when in reality they had no benefit to me whatsoever. Clever me.

Lloyds TSB
Don't bother

[Lucy Scott]

I had the same experience as Kim Alsford's daughter. My bank repeatedly ignored requests for them to supply details of charges applied to my account. But they are bound by law to supply this information under the Data Protection Act. After the statutory deadline had passed I wrote to the bank threatening to get the Information Commission involved - which helps ensure that organisations comply with their obligations under this law. Funnily enough, I recieved copies of 6 years worth of bank statements in the post within two days. If you show them you know your rights, they'll soon get their act together. Good luck.

[Clare Curtis]

To get round the need for Lloyds to contact you, set up online banking. Their statements online go back 5 years (well mine do). So you can write down all your charges.
I'm going to court tomorrow with Lloyds. They've charged me £665 over 5 years. I was a student for most of that. They happily gave me money that I didn't need (but obviously spent because I was young and irresponsible and skint). I've now just about paid off my £2000 overdraft (thanks for that Lloyds just what someone needs when they are trying to buy a house, own a car, etc).
I'm furious with Lloyds. I've always been the type of person who simply pays charges because I thought it was my fault. I always used to think it unfair that a letter cost me £20 but I never thought I could do anything about it. I'm terrified of going to court tomorrow because they are big fat cats and I'm made to look like an irresponsible child; which I feel I am. I try bloomin' hard to survive with money but those people seem happy to sit back and watch their profit grow.
Ok, I'll stop now!

[Justina Brown]

This makes me feel better to know that I'm not the only one who has been made to feel like a dimwit by Lloyds over my many miserable years of banking with them. I have calculated that in just over two years I have accumulated £2,400 charges!!

I am determined that I get my money back! I am hard working and, though not always that sensible with money in my younger day, have never received any proper help from Lloyds. I am now with 'collections' and have the misery of discussing my account with a call centre in India. I have recently written outlining my frustrations and also asking for details of my charges. That's right, I have heard nothing back but they are quick enough to write me letters when there is more charges!! agh!

Good luck to anyone who has dealings with this bank. I will happily go to court. It is a matter of principle.

[DEBRA WRIGHT]

I have been trying to get my mum and dad's charges back from Lloyds TSB. they have had over £3,000 of them in the last 6 years, we recieved a letter back yesterday saying they are sorry that we are not happy with the charges but tough!

So its of to court we go. I won't back down, my mum and dad have worked hard all there life now the retired they need that money more than the fat cats.

[Clare Curtis]

I went to court with Lloyds. Needless to say they didn't show up. However, I still had to sit in front of the judge - it was terrifying. It turned out he was a lovely old man who thought I was a law student. Basically, he said it was my "burden of proof" to prove that Lloyds charges are excessive and not Lloyds to prove they are not excessive (because I was the claimant). So, if you're off to court, go armed with information from other banks about their charges. I didn't win all my money back but I won! The judge ordered that every time I'd paid over £30 he would refund the excess charge. So from £600 odd pounds I'll get £230 back. It's not excellent but that was possibly the scariest thing I've ever had to do. The judge wanted me to go on to court and demand Lloyds turn up but I chickened out! Anyway, good luck and I hope you have more stomach than I do!
Incidentally, I think banks will have to back down soon anyway because they're backed into a corner - I asked for my Halifax charges back at the same time as my Lloyds and Halifax sent the money back straight away. It is definitely worth sending a letter to try, as for court?

[Esiri Natufe]

My wife and I have 2 seperate accounts with CITI CARDS , LBA have been sent, instead Citi said she is prepared for court showdown.
Paragraph 6 of Citi letter reads:
Citi was involved in a recent Court case in Northern Ireland, the case of Kissick V Citifinancial Europe plc, in which the fairness of these charges was challenged. The court dimissed the case, implicitly finding that the charges are fair and in conformity with the OFT guidance and common law principles of contractual damages.

So they have refused to repay my £425.00 for late charges fees.
Help needed to HUMILATE Citi?

[Andy Irving]

I was wondering if the ruling on excessive costs also incurred for late payments etc also applies to debt collection agencies and the student loans company? I have been charged a significant amount by these companies in the last few years. Any advice and help would be greatly appreciated

[Peter Faulkner]

Can you make a claim for excessive charges on a bussiness account as well as a personal account?

[Howard Allan]

Just to let people know, I have now written to 5 banks, Lloyds TSB, Alaince & leicester, Citi Finance, Marbles & MBNA Europe. I hope I have done the right thing -I have am now waiting for their response within the 40 working days after parting with £10 to cover the DP access. Any advice welcome please.

[Emma Barratt]

I was looking at one of these legal groups who offer to reclaim bank charges on your behalf for a percentage of the profits on a no win no fee basis. Does anyone know anything about this and wether it is actually of great benefit?

[James Coney]

Emma,
Like all those organisations offering you a service for no-win, no-fee, you are better off going it alone....that is unless you simply cannot be bothered.
These companies have no better success rate than an oridinary consumer, all they do is write the letters and follow up the complaints that you would normally do yourself.
They will tell you otherwise....but don't believe a word of it.
If you download the standard letter we have printed at www.thisismoney.co.uk/bankcharges you will find all the help you need.
Thanks,

James

[emma craig]

I settled through natwests solicitors, but 6 weeks later i am still waiting for my cheque. Whenever I ring the solicitor up he just tells me I have to wait for the bank to send it to them and then they will forward it on. Is there anything else I can do?

[Ian]

Lloyds have charged me thousands and constantly badgered me and re-charged me again, again and again - when I asked for help they would offer me a loan or a bigger overdraft. I am so happy that i am not alone and thinking it was me all the time. Would be grateful for any advice or assistance anyone can offer as Lloyds have put myself and my family through a five year hell.

[linda platt]

I also contacted citi cards and received the same letter back they sent me an address to complain to which i did i received a letter back today said they are dealing with it???

[carol gumble]

I have put a claim in at court for return of bank charges from the Abbey National. I have also put in a claim for the overdraught interest charges taken from my account; if it were not for the excessive charges the interest on the overdraught would not have been so high. The bank is in my view making more profit from this as well. Am I right and can you give me any advise as I am unsure about this legally.

Regards
Carol G.

[Bob]

I have seen the question asked by someone else on this site re can this be used to claim against business bank charges but I am unable to find an answer. Can someone please help? Many thanks.

[Janet]

I wrote to LLoyds two weeks ago after being charged an admin fee of £225 to close my mortgage which I had been paying for 20 years. Today I received a letter informing me the full amount plus interest would be returned to me. A good result thanks to The Mail!

[Lisa]

Just received my 'thanks for your letter regarding charges, but not a chance!' from lloyds TSB. They have played ball from day one, I received a huge parcel of all my statements 38 days after my initial request and todays letter comes 3 days before the 14 day deadline of my second letter.They never cashed my £10 cheque to cover costing of copy statements.I guess I too am off to court. Was wondering what info i need to arm myself with prior to attending I really dont want to be told off by a judge for being underprepared.

[Barbara Ann Swift]

I have received statements of charges from LLoyds TSB.My bank charges total £1430.00 I then asked for charges to be repaid and today received a letter to say that they will not pay. Is there a standard letter for the next step to take.

[Ian Keeling]

I also have received citi cards letter quoting Kissick v Citifinancial Europe. If this was precedent it would be widely used I think. Without the court transcript we don't know why it was thrown out, also is the law in Northern Ireland relating to unfair contract terms the same as in England? It looks like a smokescreen to me so I'm off to court.

There's a big spread on fighting bank charges in today's Independent.

[Petra]

I have been banking with lloyds TSB for 5 years now. Ever since I have had no problems with them as they offred me a silly account when I opened up account but they were happy enough to charge me all these fees of which I am going to claim it back but not sure whether it only applies to current account.

Also 2 months ago, I paid in 240 into my account and it was not deposited into my account. After 2 weeks I went in with my paying in book to ask for my money. They played a little bit but they paid it, I asked to have a written appology and and a letter to explain why my money was not deposited in my account. And guess what? I have received no reply and still waiting for it. Is there anything I can do to clain my interest cause I want every penny they all me!

I have said enough before I even go to HALIFAX..... They both owe me.

[Brian S]

You all signed up to the Terms and Conditions when you opened your accounts, and were told the charges up front for overdrafts and missed payments.

I find it unbelievable that you are all suddenly victims of a huge corporate fraud as is being suggested by everyone here.

You incurred the fees through managing your money poorly, so you should pay them - pure and simple.

The Banks are reluctant to go to court in case they are ruled against - the potential cost of losing is astronomical - but that doesn't mean they are wrong and you are right.

You have no-one to blame but yourselves, so accept it, pay up and shut up.

[Alec Kynoch]

I bank with Lloydtsb ,have bveen with themsince 1965.I am 71years old and in July 2002 I had a Stroke .In 2003it all went wrong .Bank charges seem to come every month .It was suggested that I change Banks ,which I have done too Alliance-Leicester .Using your letters I intend to try and get my money back.
Keep up the good Work .

[Stuart Spooner]

is it possible to claim back the charges from an account I hav closed, as I was ripped off for three years by Halifax, and finally had enough and closed my account, any chance of reclaiming that money?

[maria shaw]

I have been with lloyds tsb for over 12 years and was offered credit cards, then loans to clear the cards, then more loans to spread the cost of existing loans over a longer period with more interest....and why?
Because I split with the father of my 2 children and didn't have enough income for my out goings. Before I knew it I was been charged every month for returned cheques or direct debits which over a period of several years cost me £1451.44 in charges.
After a huge struggle and many years of refinance I've got myself back on track, and it was with no help from lloyds tsb. They kicked me when I was down, and I accepted the treatment, but now I'm kicking back, will happily see them in court.

[natasha]

I am a single parent banked with TSB four 15 years. My charges go in to thousands over about the years only now have i been in bad trouble. Last month my charges were £114 and this month £195 pounds. I rang them to help they said i could pay them back £50 a month but they're not that helpful as their charges have given me less money each month to pay my bills. I pay £7 a month for this select account plus £5 intrest makes you wonder what you are paying for. It's not like I live a high life just get by to live while they get fat.

[nicola jones]

I write in respect of the above message saying everyone entered into an agreement with the bank and agreed to the terms and conditions of charges, whilst this is correct what people didn't know was that the charges were illegal and that they were only allowed to charge what their actual losses are !! Do you think people would have accepted the conditions if we knew this, no is the answer. The banks have been getting away with pulling the wool over everybodys eyes until now, and if they are that confident they are in the right why would they worry about loosing in court. Speaks volume, role on misery to the banks.

[April]

To the person who wrote in with the nasty letter about putting up and shutting up........
Explain to me then why HSBC charges £2 to clients in Canada for a bounced cheque and £35 in the UK. Surely, the cost is similar? - Get your facts first. The banks are truly ripping off UK consumers - simply because they can AND NO ONE QUESTIONED IT UNTIL NOW.

[D Preece]

The charges may be high and considered illegal, that's for the OFT to sort out. What appears to be forgotten in all this fuss made by do gooders such as newspapers and watchdog is that many of these people continually live on money that isn't theirs.

I see it on a daily basis, always spending money that they haven't got on frivolous things such as designer clothes. These people need to get a grip on their lives and stop living beyond their means. All this will now entail is people who have not done anything wrong and look after their finances will be penalised because no doubt free banking will be a thing of the past. So what's new the good always have to pay out after the bad.

[dave mc]

banks prey on the weak and poor and don't want to help you when you have problems the amount they owe me adds up to the same amount i owe them so as i see it they got me in this mess so i will claim and win

[hannah]

Similar to question from stuart (23 feb), I too would like to reclaim my bank charges but my Lloyds TSB account was closed and transferred to their Consumer Debt Recovery Department and Lloyds now tell me that they can't let me have details of my charges or past statements because the account is closed. Does anyone know if there is something I can do?

[James]

I find the comments about "it's your fault due to poor money management, so pay up and shut up" highly amusing and ironic. We have been shown a route to reclaiming money that is *legally due to us* - surely exercising the power to claim that money fits in with the definition of good money management?

[N.Body]

I am pursuing over £2000 in bank charges from Abbey. I have sent the second template letter to them advising that these charges are illegal but they have responded by saying their complaints department is dealing with my complaint and it may take time to investigate but they will write to me within 4 weeks. What should I do now?

[Mark Swarbrick]

Why do you get bank charges? Unpaid direct debits & cleared transactions when YOU didnt have enough money in YOUR account. If you have £1000 in your bank but spend £1200 that extra £200 is not yours, it could be mine, you took it without asking, is that stealing from me?! It is all well to say 'i was only £10 over my limit but if every customer was then that is millions of pounds that aint yours. If you get charges for unpaid direct debits do you contact that company and change the due date? That way if you can have them debited just after you get paid. Believe it or not it is YOUR responsibilty to make sure there is enough money in your account to pay these bills and debit card purchases. While you might be high and mighty about nasty banks consider what you get FREE. A cheque book, a debit card to buy things, all free. A safe place for your money and interest added. The banks offer credit cards, they lend you money, they let you have a mortgage, provide insurance and savings accounts. All free services unlike the continent where you pay a fee to have a bank account. Millions of us pay no charges at all, i wonder why? How can people run up £1000's worth of charges? That is poor money management plain and simple.

[maria shaw]

in response to all the negative do gooders who think bank charges are fair, i ask you to get off your high horses and back to ground level. you would then find that banks have caused misery to millions of people who work hard to survive and struggle on the breadline. I personally have bought up 2 children who had needs. I didn't buy designer clothes, or jet off on holidays, i merely did my best to put food on the table, buy essentials for my children and pay off past debts and bills i incurred while with their father. I recieve £5.60 a month in maintaince because he pleads poverty. so please don't tell me about fair, because i've lived through the system. It's you who should shut up, and go back to fairy book reading, because you haven't got a clue about reality or responsibility.

[skintmum]

Yes, it's true that bank charges are set out in the terms and conditions when you open an account - but what choice do you have? Everyone needs a bank account and all banks seem to have the same extortionate charges. When opening an account you can't say 'no' I don't agree to the terms and conditions - you have to agree to them - otherwise you can't open the account! Unfortunately I am with Lloyds - they seem to be the worst offenders - £90 for being over my limit for 3 days/£30 for a bounced d/d. I don't live a lavish life - just a mum trying to bring up 2 kids on a low income. I'm not stupid - just struggling. Lloyds have ignored my letters - I have lodged a complaint with the Ombudsman (can't afford to go to Small Claims Court) - they say it will take at least months to resolve. Does anyone know how much Lloyds charge customers in other countries?

[clare]

well im here aswell claiming all my charges bck and after reading peoples comments i have discovered that the worse bank would be lloyds and yep i bank with them to,ive been with the bank for over 6years and havent really had much trouble until i had a overdraft and coz i ended up going in to the overdraft charges after charges were going on the account just couldnt afford it, so i will be looking forward of seeing you in court lloyds tsb

[Greg Burton]

N.Body, what branch of Lloyds TSB do YOU manage? Why can't you be real and put your name to your comment?

Greg Burton

[Greg Burton]

To all you people who are going to court, like myself, arm yourself with the word REASONABLE. All UK law is governed by that one word, reasonable. Generally, if something is considered to be unreasonable, you have a chance. So, the bank charges are clearly UNREASONABLE, they do not reflect the true actual cost to Lloyds TSB. This is the only fact you need to tell the judge. (Ask him if he's a shareholder of Lloyds TSB, because if he is, he wont make a judgement in your favour)

As for all you other 'put up or shut up' brigade, stop being so English, with your 'please rip me off more' attitude, get out of you little world of denial and examine the true, real facts, if you have the ability to be real, that is. Lloyds TSB bank charges are UNREASONABLE and unfair. Fact. The end.
Greg Burton

[Eleanor Black]

I think a big problem with Lloyds is that they allow you to unwittingly spend beyond your limit, and then charge you for it. I bet not many people out there know to the pence their exact balance every day! I had lost track of the number of times I have used my card and had it accepted - only to discover when my statement arrived that I had actually gone past my limit and been charged £30 for the transaction! It is not possible to exercise proper financial planning with a bank that cannot keep its system up to date!

If I didn't have the money, why did they let me withdraw it! I have added up all my charges since 2003 and it comes to a whopping £2400, but I have never been more than £50 overdrawn, and never for more than a couple of days. Madness, and I will certainly be taking them on!

[Tracey Jones]

Has anyone out there had any luck getting their charges back from Lloyds TSB? I've just started the ball rolling by asking for statements and it's worrying me already. I've paid thousands to them over the years and it's money I could never afford. (Every month my child benefit money is swallowed in bank charges) It'a catch 22 situation.If you're on a low income how can you get out of this mess?

[Ben Soanes]

Have been in the process for 4 months, lloyds have sent me all statements and I have written 3 letters asking for payment (£2,557) but just received the usual cannot pay you any money back. I have lodged claim on line (£120) and am awaiting a response - hopefully after 14 days! Should they decide to come to court does anyone have any info I should know or have with me apart from the not reasonable argument?

[Philip Ellson]

I am currently in the process of claiming back my £1000 bank charges from Lloyds TSB. I have paid the £120 to take them to the small claims court. I have just had a response from them with their filed defence!! Is anyone else in the same situation? I am just about to fill in the questionnaire but am a bit aprehensive .... is there anyone else who is in the same boat or who have managed to get their money back? Can you suggest what I should do now ...... please. I didn't think it would come this far!

[manda]

oh good lord,
I have been on martin lewis advice page and because i saw no negativity ref lloyds i was quietly hoping that it would be a painless experience, after reading this page i am now thing the opposite!!
I dont mind paying charges of reasonable cost but £30.00 a letter which usually arrives 3 days after the event doesnt not help you to replace the shortfall on the same day it occured.
any one had a positive experience??
manda

[Greg Burton]

The principle fact you should all be aware of is this: The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 states that 'all penalty charges have to reflect the cost of administering them.' Banks are not allowed to profit from you going overdrawn.

[katie g]

One simple solution to all of this. Learn how to manage your money better. Would you go into a shop, take a loaf of bread without asking and leave. Then, when you have a police man at your door say "Oh, I was going to pay the shop back tomorrow". What do you think the police man will say? The money people borrow when going over overdrafts or not paying direct debits, is not your money.

So, run your finances better or pay the price.

[Mary]

I have just posted my online claims form against Lloyds TSB for bank charges. Over the last six years they have had over £8,000 out of me. I am only asking for £5000 back so it can stay in the small claims court.

For the first four years I was a single parent of two children and I am now a student nurse, I believe I am entitled to this money and will fight all the way. I would be gratefull for any info to help me on my way.

[Marie Jones]

I am due to take Lloyds to court, i've heard unless you get the wording right etc the court will throw it out.

Is this true because I may need help?

[V. Lewarne]

If you want statements just go into the bank and ask. I did, and asked for 3 years worth, it was a long wait seems she had to print them all off indevidually. I closed me account in Dec with Lloyds, and cancelled paper statements, but when you close the account you can't view the statements! So just walk in and ask, if you don't ask you don't get! I am now taking them to court.

V. Lewarne

[Heather McPherson]

To Greg Burton - your analogy about taking bread from a shop was completely irrelevant. The banks are allowing you to go over your limit (not always with your knowledge if you switch something and don't know your exact balance), spend it and then charge you for their decision to give you money that you didn't have in the first place! I would much rather be told 'Sorry you don't have the funds for this' than be charged for using the bank's money!

Do you know of any shopkeepers that would knowingly tell you to take the bread you can't afford home, then send you a letter saying they're going to charge you a 500% mark up because you couldn't pay at the right time?

The main point is the banks are profiting from their charges which is not right (hence why no bank has yet to show up to defend themselves in court).

Good luck to everyone!

[zoe]

hi we have been watching the press for a couple of years as people claiming their bank charges began to take banks to court. Just after xmas we began to make a claim against lloydstsb through one of the no win no fee companies. I know that we could have done this ourselves but at the time there were stories that banks were closing accounts and also due to heavy work committments I decided that it was easier to pay the company to do this. I know I would get more money by doing this myself but this was money I thought i would never see again! Having only 80% of a 2000 windfall is still such a windfall for us. Ill keep people posted as to whether we are successful
to the lucky people who manage their money - my hubby has returned to full time education and we have 2 kids. we have had a few financial disasters and with fewer charges we would have caught up with ourselves months ago, how can I manage my money when I am handing the bank 200 every month? It is a never ending cycle and lloyds are not interested in helping us. I am ashamed to say that i have cried on the phone to them begging for a month with no charges so I can buy food!!! But they refused totally. I am hoping this money will help us get on track and open an account with a different company. I am not getting stressed about this as the solicitors are doing all the work and they send us copies of all correspondence - if we get a windfall, great - if not oh well worth a try!!

[Dianne Baker]

Have been trying to claim back charges for my son of £1278 from Barclays. I have now recieved a tfr of preceedings to our local court, and a long speel claiming 'terms and conditions etc'and as we didn't provide full details of the account they don't know what it relates too! Surely if they couldn't match it up the should have asked sooner? The filing of an allocation questionaire has been dispensed with. Should I worry about this? And what happens/should I do next?

[John Isher]

To those of you who have received the banks defence questionnaire - mine arrived this morning. It made my stomach drop too but they have taken £1000s from my account and I will happily see them in court. Their charges have exacerbated my financial difficulties and through those charges which have taken me over my O/D limit, they happily charge me again. I too did not think it would go this far but now I am at this stage it's time to get to court and reclaim illegal penalty charges. if they do show up to defend it will expose exactly how they have been ripping people off.

[Bo]

HI, I ALSO AM GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS OF CLAIMING MY MONEY BACK FROM LLOYDS, I GAVE THEM 1ST LETTER REQUESTING PRINT OUT OF STATEMENTS,40 DAYS ECT.IT`S NOW DAY 30 AND I HAVE`NT RECIEVED STATMENTS YET.I HAVE HAD SO MANY CHARGES ON TOP OF CHARGES,I THINK I COULD BE IN FOR A WINDFALL... IF ONLY I COULD CLAIM BACK FURTHER THAN SIX YEARS[I KNOW THAT SOUND LIKE GREED BUT I THINK THE BANKS ARE GREEDIER ]ANYWAY MY QUESTION REALY IS WHY CANT I, SAY.. GO BACK 10 YEARS OR AS FAR BACK TO WHEN MY ACCOUNT WAS OPENED? IS IT SOMETHING TO DO WITH KEEPING IT IN THE SMALL CLAIMS COURT? IF THATS SO WHY OR WHAT IS THE RISK BY GOING TO A HIGHER COURT? I AM BIT PUZZLED BY THIS AS I THINK IF IT WAS THE OTHER WAY AROUND THEY WOULD`NT ALLOW THE SAME GRACE IM SURE. THERE MUST BE VALID REASON FOR SIX YEARS, BUT JUST HAD TO ASK ANYWAY.

[Ed Greer]

I have just been successful with Halifax Plc. They repaid £498.00 in bank charges in full, although they also said it wasnt an admission of liability. And to Greg who would never steal bread, we dont need to because the local bakers dont charge £9.00 for a 90p loaf of bread.

[val griffiths]

We have over the last 6 years paid Abbey £8300 in charges £3750 last year alone due to the family tax credit problems. we wrote to abbey in November and they refunded £1200 into our account great u may say but then took £395 more in charges. we refused there offer and asked them to look at it again this they have declined to do. We are now going to go to court asking for £5000 as we do not wish to go to higher court. We have also been told that u can claim back the interest on the money owed.

[geraldine dunn]

I have spoken to the woolich only and they said they will investigate however getting tierd of waiting can i file court claim before 40 days

[Melanie Roach]

I have just recieved a reply from Lloyds to say that they wont refund my charges. I have now written them another letter saying that if they do not pay the charges within 14 days i will take them to court. Has anybody had to go that far or have they paid out before it got to court. Would love to hear from anybody with the same problem.
Good luck to all those trying to claim back their bank charges.

[jo]

Hi everyone, Iv sent my letter off to lloyds asking for my money back (£249) and Iv had a letter back saying they are sorry that Iv complained and are going to investigate and let me know the outcome in 4-8 weeks. Is this just to pass some more time? Does anyone know if I can still send this is moneys 3rd template letter, because I have heard back from them although it's not the reply I was hoping for.

[KERRY]

Today i recieved a letter form Lloyds saying that after a lot of consideration that they would not pay my charges back. i am now going to C.A.B and then off to a solicitor and hopefully to court. I think we need to stand up for our rights because we are in the right. If we did not have the money in our acc then why did they let us have it. then charge more and more each time!

Greg i think you need to grow up and stop changing your opinions. One minute you are saying everyone is doing the right thing and then next you are telling us its our fault!

good luck to everyone!

[Gaynor]

Hi,
Just requested 6yrs of statements from T.S.B, hope everything goes fine but after reading your comments, i dont think so.
I will keep you posted

[Mark Hansen]

Hi. Guess what, I also bank with Lloyds TSB, and I'm awaiting the response to the second letter, which due to the bank holiday weekend, I've given them until tomorrow to respond.

I've had numerous problems with Lloyds, including having them decide to move standing order payments from the end of the month, when I get paid, to the middle of the month before sending me letters and charging me.

I'm currently with Sainsburys bank (Who I've had no problems with.), and have had no D/D's or S/O's with any bank for years, as they really are more trouble and expense than they are worth.

I'll go as far as I have to to get what's legally mine. DON'T BACK DOWN!!!!!

[Lynne Fleming]

Basically im going to be blunt here. At the end of the day if you dont want charges...dont pay money you dont have...by this i mean..the direct debits you cant afford...not using your debit card..therefore not taking out the money before the thing you switched does.

I work for a bank and you know what..you people really need to get in to reality...which you are ADULTS and ADULTS take responsibility for their actions. If you dont like the way a bank charges...well dont bank there..if your too stupid to understand and read the terms and conditions..well thats jst tough. And some of you might say 'who reads the terms and conditions' well i will tell you...me for one...before i put my name to anything i read it...or is that jst common sense which most of you seem to be without.

Many Many customers i speak to run account perfectly well and at the end of the day pay all their bills and dont go overdrawn and have items returned. If you lot attempted to run your account instead of being silly little children who prefer to put the blame on someone else for being crap with money or too greedy...because lets face alot of people think..oh well i need Sky, mobile phones....i can afford to pay them..but i want them anyway.

At the end of the day if you dont want to pay charges...dont let your account go that way. I have had charges..and yes they were my fault..but hey i know its my fault, my responsibility and tough luck. Oh and tell you what...when and if the bank charges are reduced...(lets face poss £20 or so) you will still have to pay them...as you lot dont have a clue how to run your account to prevent you getting charged. And then the end to free banking for all those customers who are not stupid and know how to run their accounts....because of YOU!!!!!!!!

[dj]

Has anyone successfully taken any of the big banks to court?

[Claire]

Brian S

Gosh, the air must be thin up there on your high horse. One question for you to ponder...why are the banks giving everyone their money back if it isn't their fault?

[C OLD]

I've Banked with Lloyds TSB for over 30 years and have never paid any charges!! What am I doing wrong? Please tell me how to spend other people's money you must all be experts at this.
Lloyds TSB are no worse than the other Banks is there anybody out there with a whine about Barclays?

[Pixel]

Re: Mark Hansen's comments
Wonder where everyone gets their bad experience of the banks from? Bet you work in customer service.... At the end of the day the bank has imposed punitive charges on it's customers, it has no legal right to do this.
To those who have asked about timescales etc. Do not wait for the banks 6-8 week investigation to be completed, it's a delaying tactic.Give deadlines for responses in your letters and stick to them.
Most banks seem to have a threshold where they will pay out if your claim is below it claiming no admission of liability but that it would cost them more to defend the claim.

[LINZI]

hi, i just got a letter from Lloyds yesterday saying that my charges are not unlawful? they sent this after i have posted to letters to them, the first requesting the charges in full [around £600] after i went through my online statements and the second letter demanding a response within 7 days as i had not heard back form the first letter. The letter i recieved yesterday is saying the charges were not default [even though they are listed as thisa on my statement.

[Mike]

My Daughter has been charged £1750 and also £310 interest by Lloyds TSB over the last 6 years.
Their first response to her claim for unfair charges to be refunded was to refuse point blank to consider it.
In response to our second letter they have offered £750 as full and final settlement.
Its now a case of put up or shut up.
I seem to have 3 options.
Accept the £750, reject and go through the banking omsbudsman, or reject and go through the small claims court.
Anybody else been in this position?

[Linda Brown]

Re Mark Hansen's comments -

Perhaps it would be wise for you to remember who pays your salary (i.e. your customers). I doubt, also, whether you will endear yourself to your superiors by posting such inflammatory comments when all their efforts are now concentrated on damage limitation. Surely you and the couple of others who have written in the same vein have completely missed the point at issue. The imposition of these charges is ILLEGAL. Just as illegal as murder, rape, theft, fraud or any other offence on the statute, and as such, indefensible.

May I wish everyone who has a case pending the best of luck. I know that it is very difficult for an individual who is not conversant with legal practice to institute action of this kind. I am full of admiration for the way you are standing up for your rights, and hope that you feel VERY PROUD of yourselves. If not, you should do!

[Louise Wood]

Hi I have just received a letter from some solicitor on behalf of Alliance and Leicester (A&L) saying that they will see me in court? What do I do now? I have no idea about the legal side and will probably pass out if I have to go?
Any advice would be great.
I issued a small claims to them but hoped that would be the end??

[Liz Pearce]

I have just received Lloyds TSB defence basically saying their charges are justified. Does anyone know what I need to do now?

[Keith Harber]

To help Liz Pearce with her query this happened to me. I think that this now seems to a standard reaction to delay and confuse. What you should do now is to write back and tell TSB that since they have not supplied you with a staisfactory response to your request for the return of charges. you will claim the full amount - plus interest and court fees - through the County Court. Give them a further 14 days to respond and if they do not respond to your satisfaction issue proceedings.

[tony wood]

The bank want you to be scared about going to court after all they stand to lose a lot of money, money they unlawfully took from you whether you mismanaged your account or not, it's still your money and remember its not you on trial here it's the banks, don't be scared take it to the wire they will not want to loose face or time defending something they wont win. stand up for your rights,dont let the banks push you around anymore.i myself have incured bank charges of £117.44 i will go to court if need be and when i leave the court house my head will be held up high knowing i stood my ground to these bullys and there bully boy way..and be £117.44 better off. good luck to everyone

[CJ]

I find that the bank always charges me two days before the end of the month, applying the charges, which then put me overdrawn, so they then charge me an unauthorised overdraft fee, putting me further in the red. When I asked the bank to stop this, as it keep putting me even further into debt, they said tough!! Has anyone had any success getting their charges back from the NATIONWIDE ???

[sarah]

Like many others of you I have been fighting to claim back £2500 in bank charges from Lloyds TSB. After requesting bank statements at the agreed charge of £10, I now find they have debited my account twice for the charge on one day. So yet again I have been ripped off!

[Miss Demeanour]

Someone asked why the limit of 6 years, and not 10, etc.

It's nothing to do with keping the clain in the small claims court, it's just that 6 years is the 'limitation period' for most breach of contract matters. (Limitation Act 1980). You can only sue/claim for things that have happened in the last 6 years by law, anything older than that is deemed too remote.

[Bank Despiser]

To all of those saying 'shut up & pay up', and 'manage your account', I have news for you as you need a rude awakening since you most probably work in a bank. I for one manage my account as do many other people. I do not have an overdraft or cheque book. However, I do have direct debits and standing orders. It is not uncommon for the bank to allow direct debits etc. to be processed earlier than the agreed date; and lets be clear here, 'on or around' does not constitute an agreed date. As a result I have been charged on numerous occasions without any warning of course, and have been left in a financial mess. The charges are unrealistic, and as for the so called terms and conditions, it more like blackmail since you cannot have an account without being forced to agree to it. There have even been occasions recently when I have double checked that monies are in my account to cover outgoings, and yet I was still charged. There have also been 'errors' where the ATM gives me a balance which leads me to believe that I have more money than is actually correct. If I had the power to revert salaries being paid cash weekly direct to the employee, I would do it. I would then do away with direct debits etc. as well. There are many innocent people out there falling victim to a specially devised rip off scheme for fat cats. The banks are greedy, unreasonable and heartless, and no more than common thieves. They suck people in with charges,and then offer them a loan to pay money that they have stolen, knowing very well you can't afford to pay it and so incur further charges.They should be going to work with a stocking over their head as clearly the robbers are on the other side of the glass. The implications of such high charges and without warning are tenfold. I am on incapacity benefit, and this weekend my balance states I am overdrawn £159.00- all in bank charges, even though I ensured that funds were there to cover standing orders etc. I have no other money, and have been left with no food, no money for bills this week, no petrol, no anything. I don't know what I'm going to do. What right do they have to effect people's lives in this way? This time, I will be seeking punitive damages, and since the law says they are not allowed to profit on admin charges,I will sue them fraud, theft - anything can. If anyone of us citizens were to steal something, not only would you have to pay it back, but you would go to jail and have a criminal record. Why should it be any different for the banks? I also agree with Heather McPhereson. Why can we only for claim 6 years? Criminals do not get let off for crimes over 6 years, do they? Therefore, especially for those of you who work in a bank keep your stupid comments to yourself- you should be ashamed of the so called 'job' you do you do. Perhaps you are to busy earning bonuses and commission on our money and misery.

[Brian]

The bank (Lloyds TSB) have not replied to my small claim, so I am applying for judgement. Anyone know how long this takes before they have to pay up. I think I would prefer to send in the bailiffs, at lunchtime rush hour when most the staff are not there, and remove the safe. They have caused me much financial hardship with their tactical timed bank charges to cause the most damage. I would love to be the one to have to go to court and set a precedent so they have to pay everyone back. Do I sound bitter - well I am

[anita]

we have banked with lloyds tsb for years.
they like to charge for going over by £2. we have a loan with repayments of £100 per month and because they debitted £10 statement we went £7 overdrawn. therefore, we incurred charges for returned direct debit and also £50!!! charge for failed direct debit.(50% of monthly repayment).
we have just sent the letter threatening court if not monies not received in seven days. what do we do now? have not got a clue. in total over six years they owe us £1800 and mainly for going over by roughly £10-£20. that is not poor money management( i should know i did accounts for years) it is merely bad timing!
the bank knows we have a WEEKLY REGULAR WAGE on every friday and a couple of days would not hurt anyone. it takes ten days for a direct debit to clear and i have phoned to query a debit which was taken early only to find 3 days later it hadn't actually been sent to the receiver!??

[C.OLD]

In reponse to Bank Despiser (May 12th), I certainly do not work in a Bank and for this person to desribe mine and other comments as "stupid" just highlights his/her ignorance and I now fully understand how you think spending other people's money is "not stupid".

[Chris]

Hi everyone,ive been trying to reclaim unfair bank charges from Lloyds,Im at the point now where i have submitted my claim online to the court and they have told me that Lloyds disputes whole amount i have claimed and that my claim cannot proceed online and that it will be transferred to the appropiate court for continuation.What do i do next and what are my chances,please help.

[maruti]

Hi guys

There seems to be some problem with LLoyds TSB and even I am also victim of unfair charges from the same bank. I wrote a letter to refund charges and response was on expected lines 'NO'. I am planning to take up the case further.

keep the good work going against this SERVICE CHARGES LOOTING.

[JIm]

I have reclaimed all of my charges from Lloyds TSB - with persistant letters and after refusing an initial offer.
I wrote to the financial ombudsman and they dealt with the bank and reclaimed all of the money.
Be persistant and don't feel intimidated by the banks!

[Anna]

Hi

I am confused by a letter i have just received from LLoyds TSB about my claim for my charges to be refunded. They have said no to this request but stated that my charges are not based on default charges but charges for going over my agreed overdraft limit. Isnt this in essence the same thing - unfair charges?? are they just stalling me or trying to fob me off? anyone come across this tact and any advice on how to proceed. thanks

[Maria]

Hi, just to let you all know my progress. I got as far as sending a letter to take the bank to court, and a few weeks later recieved a letter making an offer of £750.00 in full and final settlement of my claim, which is roughly half of what I was owed. The question now is, do I accept or do I fight. The reality is £750 is better than nothing, but I do wonder why they've made an offer at all if they are so sure I broke my contract with them. Anyway, there is hope it seems, so don't give up.
A huge thank you to this site for bringing these unfair charges to our attention and for making it possible to get justice. Good luck everyone, will keep you posted.
Oh, and a final note to the high and mighties who think charges are fair. Wondering if you'll feel the same if you ever lose your job and find yourself struggling on a lower income, or you have to support a family on a low income, or your partner runs up excessive debts and leaves you to pay them. Circumstances can change for the better or worse at any time, it's not just bad management, it's the trials of life. I'd love to be there should yours ever change. I'm sure your views would change along with your new down to earth, real life of existence.

[J Jones]

Hi I've just received a £750.00 from payment from lloyds tsb and the letter was received a couple of days later. I was trying to claim £2800. Can i send them a letter saying that i do not accept it as they just put the money in my account without me agreeing to it. Your help would be greatly appreciated.
Also is it better to go to the ombudsman than to court?
I would like to say to the people who are dissing the people who are claiming that they have never been in our position. I don't earn much dosh and work for the civil service. I am also a single mum and have to make ends meet asthe government don't assist much if you work as i have to pay full rent & council tax as well as pay for school meals and clothing for my child. I have no money to spend on myself. I also have a degree and it is hard to get a well paid job. I live in a damp house and i would love to get a mortgage to buy somewhere decent but my wages are not enough.

So i will tell you people who are living comfortably to come and spend a week with me and it will change your mind.
There are circumstances and we are just trying to live our lives as best we can. Once the charges start you are paying out continually and the wages do not cover sufficiently to cover the charges.

[Marcus]

Tell them that if they don't pay up in full, you'll see them in court. Don't forget the statutory interest ;)

[Saul Hudson]

This is for those who obviously manage their accounts very well and never incurr any charges. I'm very happy for you, well done, i'd give you a medal, but I'm all out of them at the moment.

People here are not complaining about charges. We all expect to be charged for a service. What we are complaining about us "unreasonable" charges and, by no stretch of the imagination is £35 a reasonable charge for returning a dd. Now IF they had actually paid the dd and then charged for the privelage...well that's a different matter but they basically charge you for doing nothing, they are not performing a service or incurring £35 worth of costs.

So..what happens is, you get charged the £35 but of course you still have to pay the returned dd or failed standing order and things begin to pile up which can often result in you then going slightly over your overdraft again and yet more unreasonable charges.

Lets be clear about this. The banks do not want you to manage your money so you never incurr charges. They made over 4 billion pounds last year in charges. It's big business. If everyone paid everything on time, how would credit card companies and banks ever make any money ? Of course they invest the money that you pay in. But the easy money is bank charges. Basically all they have to do is sit back and let the money roll in.

I also keep hearing this nonsense about how we will see the end of so called "free banking" if banks are forced to repay charges and also lower them to a reasonable amount? Well I haven't had free banking for the last seven years. I pay £7 per month for my "classic" account so how is that free? For that of course I get charged interest on my overdraft, a ridiculous rate of interest on my loan and an equaly daft rate of interest on my credit card. £7 well spent ?

Of course it's my choice....I don't have to sign a contract with a bank and take a bank account. Well...actually I do, as do millions of others. We don't have a "choice". Without a bank account many people would not have jobs as it's a condition of many people's employment that their salary is paid into their bank every month. Also there are so many services out there now that you simply cannot get without paying by direct debit, standing order or credit card.

Of course...if there were a bank that offered "reasonable" charges and rates of interest...then there would be a real choice, but the main high street banks act like a cartel and keep charges and interests rates very similar amongst them. So tell me....where do we go? Where are the choices in banking ? Or indeed the option not to use a bank at all ?

I recently went over my overdraft limit by 48 pence. That cost me £35 and the cause of this heinous crime, oh yes, that £7 monthly charge for the privelage of having the account. Thank you very much Lloyds TSB.

[Tim. Plymouth]

I first sent a letter to Lloyds claiming my charges back in February this year and the case has progressed to the point where I was bracing myself for my day in court in August. However, I noticed on my online banking that they repaid the amount claimed in full 2 days ago. It just appeared in my account and a letter will follow, apparently.
Thanks for the advice and encouragement, it has paid off and was actually quite painless. Perhaps I'll get my day in court with Abbey in September?

[Poor Money managment!]

Response to the Anti Claimers!

Poor money managment, honest account holders... go back to your mummy and daddy and ask for a rise in your allowance, your parents are probably share holders for the banks.

Every one has diffrent lives there are many factors to why the unfortunate have dug a deeper hole.

I find your coments have no place in this forum.

[g johns]

i am waiting for a court date to take on lloyds, and have had a copy of their defence saying all the charges are legal. they also made a fatal error in saying they do not charge for an overdraft facility, when i am charged £10 a month for one. i am looking forward to my day in court, as i am still being charged on my account the usual £35 etc., making my balance look sicker than it should.
good luck to everyone, keep going. i will let you know outcome

[Smudge]

Shame on you Lloyds TSB, make the charges fair!!! Recently I have found myself in a situation where Lloyds TSB not only gave me incorrect/misleading information but carried out actions on one of my accounts without my request when in fact needed. Unfortunately I now have a legitimate complaint and when I suggested to a Lloyds TSB Manager that I will be enclosing an invoice for £30.00 to cover the cost of the letter I now have to write in order to seek redress I was promptly informed that my account would be credited with 34 pence only to cover the postage, the manager felt £30.00 excessive to say the least!!! (TO BE HONEST SO DID I) thou I felt an invoice for an amount of £30.00 was more than fair when considering Lloyds TSB charges for letter writing when things go wrong and they need to write letters to their customers !!! GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL

[Dan]

Just about to start chasing Lloyds for £550 in charges over the last 18 months. I've checked all my online statements but they only go back to Feb '06. In my initial letter I have stated that at this point I am only claiming for these recent charges. If I get the unhelpful response I expect will it affect my case if I then add on previous charges (after asking for the information through DPA). After dealing with the small claims court before I've found it helps to be as reasonable as possible, anyone with precident?

[Steve Tucker]

Lloyds T S B will not give me an overdraft but every month they charge me 30.00 pound for going unauthorised over drawn.They will let me go overdrawn to claim bank charges but WONT let me have an authorised overdraft.

[J.L.]

I have been an Abbey customer since the 1980s - I may have agreed back then to the small print & conditions because you had no choice - but whatever I signed back then I am certain the charges were around £6/£8 and maybe £10 - but I certainly havent signed anything since agreeing to the £20 £30 & £35 penalties since imposed.
They havent had to type and send letters out personally for years and technology has moved on not gone backwards. We all know it cant cost more than £5 to send
electronically/computerised admin. charges.
Back then Tvs & Video recorders, camcorders were expensive items but technology has meant you can get such items for less than half the price you paid 10/15 years ago.
Admin charges shouldnt be inflation linked todays improved computerised systems should mean admin charges are cheaper than ever.
Good job they never took over Dixons.

Anyway - I have a Court date in August when Abbey defend against my claim - I have asked for them to supply me with the true cost of such administration - I wonder if they will actually admit the true cost.

[Paul Rochester]

Lloyds TSB owe me £661.54 in charges I have been on their case since march I no longer bank with them and I am having great pleasure in badgering the manager at the local branch after having no success in making contact with the 2 numbers they give me to contact which are always very busy. I dont particulary need the money asap. my advice is to just badger the manager at your branch make him have bad dreams about your charges and make him do the work of getting you your money back. if that fails use the bailifs it sounds much more fun and you still get your dosh back. then when all is done close your account and never return coz Lloyds are the pits anyway.

[karen donaldson]

Hi, my comment is i had a personnel loan to pay all my debts off i was paying £172.04 per mth but in 2005 i was unable to pay all that amount back due to changes in my circumstances. So i contacted my local branch and i was able to pay £100 per month that was ok until jan 2007 when i was paying my debt thinking it was being paid but to my suprise i was paying it but they were paying it back in to my bank account. What reason no one knows i've got to point now were i'm depressed. A BIG THANK YOU TO LlOYDS TSB im still trying to sort this error out with no look so when it is sorted out im claiming componsation for all the stress theyve caused me over the months.

[Tony Wood-Wright]

Thanks to This Is Money I claimed £1400 from Barclays just got a settlement @ £1000 which considering I lumped any odd charges I could identify into my claim I am rather pleased with. On to my wife and daughters accounts next. I will keep you Bloggers up to date, but don't be discouraged by recent news, it's your money,claim,claim,claim !

[Brendan]

Hi all, has anyone got a full refund with Alliance Liester yet? They own me £1,370 that's without the interest on top. I'm about to send them my first letter, giving them 14 days to refund full amount...should i add interest now? Or can i add it if they dont reply to my first letter? Help me?

[mark hubbard]

I have reclaimed all of the charges which LLOYDS TSB had charged me over a 5-year period. I had approx £795 offered after i sent them the second letter stating unless i get a response in 14 days then we go to court. Well around 3 weeks later i got the news i was waiting for they said that they don't feel they're in the wrong but are willing to repay the charges in full, so they're not in the wrong but they're going to pay anyway hmmm. Now it's been a good 6 mon ths since the payout day and guess what they're at it again. December 07 i was struggling with my finances i tried hard to make ends meet but there was a couple of direct debits which didn't get paid due to the lack of funds and will LLOYDS new bank charging system from DEC07 to JAN08 i owe them nearly £200 now im getting charged an UNPLANNED OVERDRAFT fee and also a daily charge while my accounts still in the red also £7 a time for account charges.
Well ive had just about enough of this IM GOING TO APPLY ALL CHARGES BACK AGAIN lets see what the end result is going to be now i will keep you all updated with any results from LLOYDS TSB