Bank charges fight goes on

There is good news for all of those current account customers trying to get their bank to refund unauthorised overdraft charges.

A legal test case that caused bank charges complaints to be thrown out of the courts has been settled.

The case, which we revealed a week ago in Money Mail, was against Lloyds TSB brought by a customer trying to reclaim thousands of pounds of bank charges and was scheduled to be heard by London Mercantile Court.

This would have provided grounds for a precedent that other similar bank charges cases being heard by the small claims court could have followed. As a result many were thrown out or stalled.

However, after a chat with a spokesman for Lloyds TSB I discover that they have now paid back the dipsuted charges. She says that Lloyds had not been aware that its legal argument was being considered as a test case.

The case passed on from the small claims court to the higher Mercantile Court because it had been so technical.

This had alerted other regional courts where judges had decided to put claims to refund bank charges on hold.

However, after the case had been transferred to the Mercantile Court it was settled by Lloyds. Now all the other cases that had been delayed by judges have been . Many have now been settled by the banks.

It means that no bank has yet defended a court claim from a customer seeking to have bank charges refunded.

I passed this good news on to Marc Gander, from bank charges website Consumer Action Group. This group has done some sterling work in helping current account customers understand their legal rights when it comes to unauthorised charges.

Mr Gander says: 'I think that this goes to show that the banks really don't want to go to court and are in disarray.'

And he could well be right. During our campaign Fair Play on Charges we have entered into a bit of a circular conversation with banks.

Every time I ask them about charges they reply that they are part of the terms and conditions of the account. But that doesn't mean they are fair, I reply. That doesn't mean that they reflect the true cost of operating the unauthorised overdraft.

And you can guess what the response is. 'They are part of the terms and conditions of the account.'

And so it goes on. I'm sure you'll be hearing plenty more on this from me....

James Coney, Money Mail

- For a full list of Bank Charges stories click here or see here...

• Campaign: Fair play on bank charges
• How to reclaim bank charges
• How to reclaim credit card charges
• How to reclaim payment protection insurance premiums (on loans and credit cards)
• Analysis: Is this the end of free banking

Comments

[Anne Bateson]

I've just received papers asking for the case to be struck out (on a technicality) and also because "the claimant has no reasonable grounds for bringing a claim against the defendant and the claimant has no real prospect of success" - Lloyds TSB
Needles to say I am continuing with my battle. Please, please, please, keep up the good work you are doing on behalf of all of us

[kim Alsford]

What do you do when a bank completely ignores your letters? My daughter has requested a list of all penalties imposed on her account and given the statutory 40 days but has had no reply. We then wrote another letter giving them 14 days to provide the information requested and that letter has also been ignored. My daughter has moved a lot and does not have bank statements available, how do we find this information if Lloyds bank won't reply?

[Tracy Brown]

ive always had problems with LLoyds TSB, but always assumed that this was all my own fault, so back in November 2005, i contacted their customer help line. i shared with them the growing bank charges that were added to my account, averaging between £125 and £275, over a period of 4 months, they agreed to an overdraft of £800, this was then supposed to help me sort out my financial difficulties, i also asked if it were possible to put aside the charges, to be able to assist my problems further, they said this could not be done, so the bank charges were still applied to my bank account, this was therefore a contradiction of the offer of help.

over the last year i have paid my over draft back at a rate of £40 a month, and this month will be the final payment, would i still be able to reclaim back all the charges over the last six years? Information would be greatly appreciated.

Tracy Brown

[Si Sherry]

I've lived abroad for the last 2+years working as a consultant, and due to the nature of my job can't guarantee when I'll be paid. I have a graduate loan with Lloyds-TSB, but they don't care about my situation-I've spoken to countless advisors to explain the situation, and generally they've been ok with it. (It must be a miserable place to work)

Last Friday I was told that my o/d was illegal, by someone who obviously had delusions and that it had been removed "toot sweet". Great, so I was paying 7 squid for a "SELECT" (read selected for stupidity) account, and close to 4 pounds (both per month) for Pinnacle insurance, both recommended to me by members of LTSB as essential just before I moved to sunny France, when in reality they had no benefit to me whatsoever. Clever me.

Lloyds TSB
Don't bother

[Lucy Scott]

I had the same experience as Kim Alsford's daughter. My bank repeatedly ignored requests for them to supply details of charges applied to my account. But they are bound by law to supply this information under the Data Protection Act. After the statutory deadline had passed I wrote to the bank threatening to get the Information Commission involved - which helps ensure that organisations comply with their obligations under this law. Funnily enough, I recieved copies of 6 years worth of bank statements in the post within two days. If you show them you know your rights, they'll soon get their act together. Good luck.

[Clare Curtis]

To get round the need for Lloyds to contact you, set up online banking. Their statements online go back 5 years (well mine do). So you can write down all your charges.
I'm going to court tomorrow with Lloyds. They've charged me £665 over 5 years. I was a student for most of that. They happily gave me money that I didn't need (but obviously spent because I was young and irresponsible and skint). I've now just about paid off my £2000 overdraft (thanks for that Lloyds just what someone needs when they are trying to buy a house, own a car, etc).
I'm furious with Lloyds. I've always been the type of person who simply pays charges because I thought it was my fault. I always used to think it unfair that a letter cost me £20 but I never thought I could do anything about it. I'm terrified of going to court tomorrow because they are big fat cats and I'm made to look like an irresponsible child; which I feel I am. I try bloomin' hard to survive with money but those people seem happy to sit back and watch their profit grow.
Ok, I'll stop now!

[Justina Brown]

This makes me feel better to know that I'm not the only one who has been made to feel like a dimwit by Lloyds over my many miserable years of banking with them. I have calculated that in just over two years I have accumulated £2,400 charges!!

I am determined that I get my money back! I am hard working and, though not always that sensible with money in my younger day, have never received any proper help from Lloyds. I am now with 'collections' and have the misery of discussing my account with a call centre in India. I have recently written outlining my frustrations and also asking for details of my charges. That's right, I have heard nothing back but they are quick enough to write me letters when there is more charges!! agh!

Good luck to anyone who has dealings with this bank. I will happily go to court. It is a matter of principle.

[DEBRA WRIGHT]

I have been trying to get my mum and dad's charges back from Lloyds TSB. they have had over £3,000 of them in the last 6 years, we recieved a letter back yesterday saying they are sorry that we are not happy with the charges but tough!

So its of to court we go. I won't back down, my mum and dad have worked hard all there life now the retired they need that money more than the fat cats.

[Clare Curtis]

I went to court with Lloyds. Needless to say they didn't show up. However, I still had to sit in front of the judge - it was terrifying. It turned out he was a lovely old man who thought I was a law student. Basically, he said it was my "burden of proof" to prove that Lloyds charges are excessive and not Lloyds to prove they are not excessive (because I was the claimant). So, if you're off to court, go armed with information from other banks about their charges. I didn't win all my money back but I won! The judge ordered that every time I'd paid over £30 he would refund the excess charge. So from £600 odd pounds I'll get £230 back. It's not excellent but that was possibly the scariest thing I've ever had to do. The judge wanted me to go on to court and demand Lloyds turn up but I chickened out! Anyway, good luck and I hope you have more stomach than I do!
Incidentally, I think banks will have to back down soon anyway because they're backed into a corner - I asked for my Halifax charges back at the same time as my Lloyds and Halifax sent the money back straight away. It is definitely worth sending a letter to try, as for court?

[Esiri Natufe]

My wife and I have 2 seperate accounts with CITI CARDS , LBA have been sent, instead Citi said she is prepared for court showdown.
Paragraph 6 of Citi letter reads:
Citi was involved in a recent Court case in Northern Ireland, the case of Kissick V Citifinancial Europe plc, in which the fairness of these charges was challenged. The court dimissed the case, implicitly finding that the charges are fair and in conformity with the OFT guidance and common law principles of contractual damages.

So they have refused to repay my £425.00 for late charges fees.
Help needed to HUMILATE Citi?

[Andy Irving]

I was wondering if the ruling on excessive costs also incurred for late payments etc also applies to debt collection agencies and the student loans company? I have been charged a significant amount by these companies in the last few years. Any advice and help would be greatly appreciated

[Peter Faulkner]

Can you make a claim for excessive charges on a bussiness account as well as a personal account?

[Howard Allan]

Just to let people know, I have now written to 5 banks, Lloyds TSB, Alaince & leicester, Citi Finance, Marbles & MBNA Europe. I hope I have done the right thing -I have am now waiting for their response within the 40 working days after parting with £10 to cover the DP access. Any advice welcome please.

[Emma Barratt]

I was looking at one of these legal groups who offer to reclaim bank charges on your behalf for a percentage of the profits on a no win no fee basis. Does anyone know anything about this and wether it is actually of great benefit?

[James Coney]

Emma,
Like all those organisations offering you a service for no-win, no-fee, you are better off going it alone....that is unless you simply cannot be bothered.
These companies have no better success rate than an oridinary consumer, all they do is write the letters and follow up the complaints that you would normally do yourself.
They will tell you otherwise....but don't believe a word of it.
If you download the standard letter we have printed at www.thisismoney.co.uk/bankcharges you will find all the help you need.
Thanks,

James

[emma craig]

I settled through natwests solicitors, but 6 weeks later i am still waiting for my cheque. Whenever I ring the solicitor up he just tells me I have to wait for the bank to send it to them and then they will forward it on. Is there anything else I can do?

[Ian]

Lloyds have charged me thousands and constantly badgered me and re-charged me again, again and again - when I asked for help they would offer me a loan or a bigger overdraft. I am so happy that i am not alone and thinking it was me all the time. Would be grateful for any advice or assistance anyone can offer as Lloyds have put myself and my family through a five year hell.

[linda platt]

I also contacted citi cards and received the same letter back they sent me an address to complain to which i did i received a letter back today said they are dealing with it???

[carol gumble]

I have put a claim in at court for return of bank charges from the Abbey National. I have also put in a claim for the overdraught interest charges taken from my account; if it were not for the excessive charges the interest on the overdraught would not have been so high. The bank is in my view making more profit from this as well. Am I right and can you give me any advise as I am unsure about this legally.

Regards
Carol G.

[Bob]

I have seen the question asked by someone else on this site re can this be used to claim against business bank charges but I am unable to find an answer. Can someone please help? Many thanks.

[Janet]

I wrote to LLoyds two weeks ago after being charged an admin fee of £225 to close my mortgage which I had been paying for 20 years. Today I received a letter informing me the full amount plus interest would be returned to me. A good result thanks to The Mail!

[Lisa]

Just received my 'thanks for your letter regarding charges, but not a chance!' from lloyds TSB. They have played ball from day one, I received a huge parcel of all my statements 38 days after my initial request and todays letter comes 3 days before the 14 day deadline of my second letter.They never cashed my £10 cheque to cover costing of copy statements.I guess I too am off to court. Was wondering what info i need to arm myself with prior to attending I really dont want to be told off by a judge for being underprepared.

[Barbara Ann Swift]

I have received statements of charges from LLoyds TSB.My bank charges total £1430.00 I then asked for charges to be repaid and today received a letter to say that they will not pay. Is there a standard letter for the next step to take.

[Ian Keeling]

I also have received citi cards letter quoting Kissick v Citifinancial Europe. If this was precedent it would be widely used I think. Without the court transcript we don't know why it was thrown out, also is the law in Northern Ireland relating to unfair contract terms the same as in England? It looks like a smokescreen to me so I'm off to court.

There's a big spread on fighting bank charges in today's Independent.

[Petra]

I have been banking with lloyds TSB for 5 years now. Ever since I have had no problems with them as they offred me a silly account when I opened up account but they were happy enough to charge me all these fees of which I am going to claim it back but not sure whether it only applies to current account.

Also 2 months ago, I paid in 240 into my account and it was not deposited into my account. After 2 weeks I went in with my paying in book to ask for my money. They played a little bit but they paid it, I asked to have a written appology and and a letter to explain why my money was not deposited in my account. And guess what? I have received no reply and still waiting for it. Is there anything I can do to clain my interest cause I want every penny they all me!

I have said enough before I even go to HALIFAX..... They both owe me.

[Brian S]

You all signed up to the Terms and Conditions when you opened your accounts, and were told the charges up front for overdrafts and missed payments.

I find it unbelievable that you are all suddenly victims of a huge corporate fraud as is being suggested by everyone here.

You incurred the fees through managing your money poorly, so you should pay them - pure and simple.

The Banks are reluctant to go to court in case they are ruled against - the potential cost of losing is astronomical - but that doesn't mean they are wrong and you are right.

You have no-one to blame but yourselves, so accept it, pay up and shut up.

[Alec Kynoch]

I bank with Lloydtsb ,have bveen with themsince 1965.I am 71years old and in July 2002 I had a Stroke .In 2003it all went wrong .Bank charges seem to come every month .It was suggested that I change Banks ,which I have done too Alliance-Leicester .Using your letters I intend to try and get my money back.
Keep up the good Work .

[Stuart Spooner]

is it possible to claim back the charges from an account I hav closed, as I was ripped off for three years by Halifax, and finally had enough and closed my account, any chance of reclaiming that money?

[maria shaw]

I have been with lloyds tsb for over 12 years and was offered credit cards, then loans to clear the cards, then more loans to spread the cost of existing loans over a longer period with more interest....and why?
Because I split with the father of my 2 children and didn't have enough income for my out goings. Before I knew it I was been charged every month for returned cheques or direct debits which over a period of several years cost me £1451.44 in charges.
After a huge struggle and many years of refinance I've got myself back on track, and it was with no help from lloyds tsb. They kicked me when I was down, and I accepted the treatment, but now I'm kicking back, will happily see them in court.

[natasha]

I am a single parent banked with TSB four 15 years. My charges go in to thousands over about the years only now have i been in bad trouble. Last month my charges were £114 and this month £195 pounds. I rang them to help they said i could pay them back £50 a month but they're not that helpful as their charges have given me less money each month to pay my bills. I pay £7 a month for this select account plus £5 intrest makes you wonder what you are paying for. It's not like I live a high life just get by to live while they get fat.

[nicola jones]

I write in respect of the above message saying everyone entered into an agreement with the bank and agreed to the terms and conditions of charges, whilst this is correct what people didn't know was that the charges were illegal and that they were only allowed to charge what their actual losses are !! Do you think people would have accepted the conditions if we knew this, no is the answer. The banks have been getting away with pulling the wool over everybodys eyes until now, and if they are that confident they are in the right why would they worry about loosing in court. Speaks volume, role on misery to the banks.

[April]

To the person who wrote in with the nasty letter about putting up and shutting up........
Explain to me then why HSBC charges £2 to clients in Canada for a bounced cheque and £35 in the UK. Surely, the cost is similar? - Get your facts first. The banks are truly ripping off UK consumers - simply because they can AND NO ONE QUESTIONED IT UNTIL NOW.

[D Preece]

The charges may be high and considered illegal, that's for the OFT to sort out. What appears to be forgotten in all this fuss made by do gooders such as newspapers and watchdog is that many of these people continually live on money that isn't theirs.

I see it on a daily basis, always spending money that they haven't got on frivolous things such as designer clothes. These people need to get a grip on their lives and stop living beyond their means. All this will now entail is people who have not done anything wrong and look after their finances will be penalised because no doubt free banking will be a thing of the past. So what's new the good always have to pay out after the bad.

[dave mc]

banks prey on the weak and poor and don't want to help you when you have problems the amount they owe me adds up to the same amount i owe them so as i see it they got me in this mess so i will claim and win

[hannah]

Similar to question from stuart (23 feb), I too would like to reclaim my bank charges but my Lloyds TSB account was closed and transferred to their Consumer Debt Recovery Department and Lloyds now tell me that they can't let me have details of my charges or past statements because the account is closed. Does anyone know if there is something I can do?

[James]

I find the comments about "it's your fault due to poor money management, so pay up and shut up" highly amusing and ironic. We have been shown a route to reclaiming money that is *legally due to us* - surely exercising the power to claim that money fits in with the definition of good money management?

[N.Body]

I am pursuing over £2000 in bank charges from Abbey. I have sent the second template letter to them advising that these charges are illegal but they have responded by saying their complaints department is dealing with my complaint and it may take time to investigate but they will write to me within 4 weeks. What should I do now?

[Mark Swarbrick]

Why do you get bank charges? Unpaid direct debits & cleared transactions when YOU didnt have enough money in YOUR account. If you have £1000 in your bank but spend £1200 that extra £200 is not yours, it could be mine, you took it without asking, is that stealing from me?! It is all well to say 'i was only £10 over my limit but if every customer was then that is millions of pounds that aint yours. If you get charges for unpaid direct debits do you contact that company and change the due date? That way if you can have them debited just after you get paid. Believe it or not it is YOUR responsibilty to make sure there is enough money in your account to pay these bills and debit card purchases. While you might be high and mighty about nasty banks consider what you get FREE. A cheque book, a debit card to buy things, all free. A safe place for your money and interest added. The banks offer credit cards, they lend you money, they let you have a mortgage, provide insurance and savings accounts. All free services unlike the continent where you pay a fee to have a bank account. Millions of us pay no charges at all, i wonder why? How can people run up £1000's worth of charges? That is poor money management plain and simple.

[maria shaw]

in response to all the negative do gooders who think bank charges are fair, i ask you to get off your high horses and back to ground level. you would then find that banks have caused misery to millions of people who work hard to survive and struggle on the breadline. I personally have bought up 2 children who had needs. I didn't buy designer clothes, or jet off on holidays, i merely did my best to put food on the table, buy essentials for my children and pay off past debts and bills i incurred while with their father. I recieve £5.60 a month in maintaince because he pleads poverty. so please don't tell me about fair, because i've lived through the system. It's you who should shut up, and go back to fairy book reading, because you haven't got a clue about reality or responsibility.

[skintmum]

Yes, it's true that bank charges are set out in the terms and conditions when you open an account - but what choice do you have? Everyone needs a bank account and all banks seem to have the same extortionate charges. When opening an account you can't say 'no' I don't agree to the terms and conditions - you have to agree to them - otherwise you can't open the account! Unfortunately I am with Lloyds - they seem to be the worst offenders - £90 for being over my limit for 3 days/£30 for a bounced d/d. I don't live a lavish life - just a mum trying to bring up 2 kids on a low income. I'm not stupid - just struggling. Lloyds have ignored my letters - I have lodged a complaint with the Ombudsman (can't afford to go to Small Claims Court) - they say it will take at least months to resolve. Does anyone know how much Lloyds charge customers in other countries?

[clare]

well im here aswell claiming all my charges bck and after reading peoples comments i have discovered that the worse bank would be lloyds and yep i bank with them to,ive been with the bank for over 6years and havent really had much trouble until i had a overdraft and coz i ended up going in to the overdraft charges after charges were going on the account just couldnt afford it, so i will be looking forward of seeing you in court lloyds tsb

[Greg Burton]

N.Body, what branch of Lloyds TSB do YOU manage? Why can't you be real and put your name to your comment?

Greg Burton

[Greg Burton]

To all you people who are going to court, like myself, arm yourself with the word REASONABLE. All UK law is governed by that one word, reasonable. Generally, if something is considered to be unreasonable, you have a chance. So, the bank charges are clearly UNREASONABLE, they do not reflect the true actual cost to Lloyds TSB. This is the only fact you need to tell the judge. (Ask him if he's a shareholder of Lloyds TSB, because if he is, he wont make a judgement in your favour)

As for all you other 'put up or shut up' brigade, stop being so English, with your 'please rip me off more' attitude, get out of you little world of denial and examine the true, real facts, if you have the ability to be real, that is. Lloyds TSB bank charges are UNREASONABLE and unfair. Fact. The end.
Greg Burton

[Eleanor Black]

I think a big problem with Lloyds is that they allow you to unwittingly spend beyond your limit, and then charge you for it. I bet not many people out there know to the pence their exact balance every day! I had lost track of the number of times I have used my card and had it accepted - only to discover when my statement arrived that I had actually gone past my limit and been charged £30 for the transaction! It is not possible to exercise proper financial planning with a bank that cannot keep its system up to date!

If I didn't have the money, why did they let me withdraw it! I have added up all my charges since 2003 and it comes to a whopping £2400, but I have never been more than £50 overdrawn, and never for more than a couple of days. Madness, and I will certainly be taking them on!

[Tracey Jones]

Has anyone out there had any luck getting their charges back from Lloyds TSB? I've just started the ball rolling by asking for statements and it's worrying me already. I've paid thousands to them over the years and it's money I could never afford. (Every month my child benefit money is swallowed in bank charges) It'a catch 22 situation.If you're on a low income how can you get out of this mess?

[Ben Soanes]

Have been in the process for 4 months, lloyds have sent me all statements and I have written 3 letters asking for payment (£2,557) but just received the usual cannot pay you any money back. I have lodged claim on line (£120) and am awaiting a response - hopefully after 14 days! Should they decide to come to court does anyone have any info I should know or have with me apart from the not reasonable argument?

[Philip Ellson]

I am currently in the process of claiming back my £1000 bank charges from Lloyds TSB. I have paid the £120 to take them to the small claims court. I have just had a response from them with their filed defence!! Is anyone else in the same situation? I am just about to fill in the questionnaire but am a bit aprehensive .... is there anyone else who is in the same boat or who have managed to get their money back? Can you suggest what I should do now ...... please. I didn't think it would come this far!

[manda]

oh good lord,
I have been on martin lewis advice page and because i saw no negativity ref lloyds i was quietly hoping that it would be a painless experience, after reading this page i am now thing the opposite!!
I dont mind paying charges of reasonable cost but £30.00 a letter which usually arrives 3 days after the event doesnt not help you to replace the shortfall on the same day it occured.
any one had a positive experience??
manda

[Greg Burton]

The principle fact you should all be aware of is this: The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 states that 'all penalty charges have to reflect the cost of administering them.' Banks are not allowed to profit from you going overdrawn.

[katie g]

One simple solution to all of this. Learn how to manage your money better. Would you go into a shop, take a loaf of bread without asking and leave. Then, when you have a police man at your door say "Oh, I was going to pay the shop back tomorrow". What do you think the police man will say? The money people borrow when going over overdrafts or not paying direct debits, is not your money.

So, run your finances better or pay the price.