My torrent of abuse from an eBay seller

The knives are out at eBay after it announced a raft of changes to its website, including most controversially the decision to ban eBay sellers leaving negative feedback.

To an extent I can understand the complaint about this skewing the system, but frankly considering the way some sellers are behaving it couldn’t come soon enough.

Ebay started off as - and often still is - a great place to find obscure stuff you want at a cheap price, but it has been swamped by people running businesses and using its anonymity to mistreat customers.

Last week, I had what is possibly the rudest, most ignorant and moronic message I have ever had the misfortune to be sent and it was all from some self-important numpty who trades on eBay and couldn’t accept the mildest of criticisms.

This took the modern day concept of threatening anti-customer service, as perfected by big companies like British Gas, BT and our banks, to a new level.

In fact, if he wasn’t a fictional character, this response could have come straight from the obscenely rude comic book store owner in the Simpsons, especially as it was signed off as The Vindicated.

I had bought a second hand Prince CD off this seller for £1.99, which had postage and packaging of £1.99 to be added on.

When the CD arrived a week later, the outside of the 20p Jiffy bag it was posted in had a postage label attached, saying 60p second class.

Now, foolishly, I hadn’t originally spotted that the P&P charge was for second class and presumed it be first class, but even if I had I could have expected a high end packaging service for the £1.39 on top of the postage.

So, when I left the seller feedback, I gave some very mild criticism. Leaving them positive feedback overall, I added the message, 'Prompt delivery, thanks. Postage expensive.'

In response to this I received only neutral feedback, despite having paid up immediately after I bought the CD, and the following message (note the rude shouting in capital letters): 'U Can't Moan Re The P/P Fee - If NOT Happy With/Preparred 2 Pay - THEN DON'T BUY’

I felt this was a bit harsh, as this clown was the one who ripped me off in the first place and this section of eBay is after all called Feedback. I emailed him back and said he should reconsider his behaviour towards customers. It was then that Mr Happy really opened fire.

I have put the message below. I sent it round the This is Money desk when I got it and everyone urged me to name and shame this halfwit and his business to our 1m-plus readers.

I have decided to spare his blushes. Maybe I am too nice – you decide:

The eBay sellers' response (spelling and grammar all his own work:)

I'm NOT your MATE (note capitals). Our comments were perfectly acceptable. Thank your lucky stars it wasn't NEGATIVE feedback. Thought we'd give you a break on that one. Feedback isn't just about how promptly a buyer pays it's about the transaction as a whole. You had no cause to complain about the p/p price. It was clearly stated in the listing & if you weren't happy with it then you shouldn't have bought the item. To openly verbalise in writing your distain about the price to the general public, something which was clearly stated & accepted by you as an appropriate amount to pay by agreeing to the purchase is in itself more than unacceptable & worthy of a return comment by us. The price reflects not just the 60p charge & 20p envelope it also includes a myriad of other expenses. If it states 2nd class then why would you assume it would be 1st class? I think you have protested far too much about something you obviously know very little about & shot yourself in the foot so to speak. Next time READ the listing. ALL of the listing. DON'T assume anything & DON'T try to blame someone else for your own error. If you're not happy with any part of a proposed transaction, question it first DON'T abuse later! Finally, I?ll leave whatever feedback I wish. It's my prerogative & right under eBay policy. Just remember that in future with regards to other transactions with sellers.
Regards,
The vindicated.......

p.s. if you're considering pursuing a pathetic tit for tat barrage of messages on this subject be warned. That's an abuse of the eBay message system & reportable to eBay which could land you with being banned from eBay completely. This is not a threat but an informative comment which a well respected, with 5+ years selling experience seller such as us(with NO OTHER COMMENTS ABOUT OUR P/P PRICES),should offer an apparent ignorant virgin buyer.....

Now, how's that for customer service? It covers rude, abusive, threatening, pompous and much more. What a nice chap, hey.

- Simon Lambert, This is Money

Useful links:

>> eBay bans sellers negative feedback
>> Is eBay turning its back on small sellers
>> This is Money readers' eBay concerns

Comments

[Darren]

The above rant from the seller is mild... most eBay sellers never even bother to have any contact with the buyer... I routinely get packages poorly wrapped from eBay sellers (power sellers at that!) and zero communication... and I also sell on eBay...

And how is it that most power sellers have less than 100% ratings? Perhaps they're too busy to make the effort with their buyers...

[Colin]

It's a bit unfair to post his message to judge when you don't post your own so we can judge your initial tone. I'd also say that one email is hardly a "torrent". Nor was his email particularly abusive in my opinion, he didn't insult you or your mother, instead staying on topic and going over the facts.

I'm sorry to say, I think he's right. You shouldn't have commented that it was "Expensive P&P" if you were happy to pay it in the first place, and every company is entitled to charge more than the basic cost of raw materials for shipping.

Having said all that, he shouldn't have escalated the issue by giving you neutral feedback. Positive feedback with the comment: "Pays promptly, but doesn't read too good and a bit of a whinger" would have been more appropriate.

[Sandra Quelch]

Hi Simon
Had to comment on what you wrote re the seller on Ebay. I had similar thing happen to me and I queried it, not only that the item, which was an item of clothing was marked and it was clearly stated that the item was in perfect condition, I contacted them and the reply was not very nice, (what did I expect for that money, but I won the bid far and square) But the outcome was I left them not the lowest rating on feedback, think it was neutral, (sorry cannot remember exactly) just said that was not happy with postage and the item was marked, you would not believe the the feedback they gave me, it was horrible and they went for the lowest and obviously my 100% feedback was took down to 99% I was really unhappy and contacted Ebay and they said all I could do was to ask the seller to retract (I don't think so)as he told me basically what a piece of scum I was.
I have never sold on Ebay only buy for myself or my family and all my feedback is 100% and have met some really nice people on Ebay, this knocked me back and feel that it is unjust and to be honest think it should be removed as they were in the wrong.
If you criticise anyone over the postage, there is a minority get very aggressive and to be honest I have had quiet a few, that when the item has arrived does not have anywhere near the postage that they have charged, it is really a big RIP OFF. Dare not comment now to the sellers as they control my feedback score.

Sorry you have such a nasty response. Obviously the sellers are worried now about what Ebay are doing and I think it's about time these nasty sellers were knocked back. Its about time we had backing the sellers have had it to good for too long and get away with being abusive.

[Sophy]

On the flip side of this the seller does have other charges to account for other than just the postal and packaging charges, such as petrol to post item and I understand that if you have a business account then VAT becomes payable on postage.

I think that if you agree at the time to pay £1.99 postage and it is clearly stated on listing (which I do not think is an unreasonable amount) then it is not right to complain afterwards.

I take great pride in selling my rating on ebay and would be greatly upset at the comment of unreasonable postage. As a buyer you have the opportunity to rate the buyer on these issues anyway through the scoring system.

Maybe a private email to seller would have been more appropriate?

[Paul]

I don't believe that the tone of the seller's response was very professional, however I would echo the fact that you are not just paying for postage and packaging materials. With more and more post office branches closing, some people have a considerable journey to post items. The reality of business is that this journey incurs costs which the business owner on tight margins must pass on to the customer.

[Sian]

I bought some jewellery as an Xmas present from a seller with 100% positive feedback. The items were advertised as marked silver and real semi precious stones. They were claimed to be seconhand, which explained the low starting price.

When they arrived they were new, poor quality, with fake stones and not even silver. I emailed the seller got an abusive email back and threats about what would happen if I posted negative feedback.

She did refund the money on return of the items. Fear of the consequence of abusive feedback meant I left none resulting in a seller keeping her 100% positive totally undeserved. Checking her website history I noticed 'unique' vintage items regularly being resold, either returned or not unique.

I regularly buy vintage jewellery on ebay and all other sellers I have used are genuine and great to deal with.

[anon]

His comments are a bit o.t.t.

However E-bay rules clearly state sellers are allowed to charge a reasonable fee on top of the actual postage and packaging.

[John]

I think some sellers use artificially higher P & P rates to stop people paying under the odds for items which could sell for peanuts if there was little interest in it i.e. item 1p and postage 4.99 means seller wants to cover postage of say 2.00 and something for his trouble, rather than 1p and 2.00 for p & P and someone pays 2.01. Its not worth the agro of selling otherwise... As long as they post as detailed and wrap well where's the problem. Houses might not be worth what you pay but you find out the cost up front which includes the land, the building and the view. You cant moan afterwards if you think you overpaid as the information was available prior to sale and you chose to proceed. As usual it's open to individual interpretation.

[Simon L, This is Money]

Thanks for your comments. There are loads of good eBay sellers out there and this was just one bad one who illustrates how things have become skewed by those treating people badly.

Firstly, I should state that this wasn't an auction price, it was only sold as Buy It Now, so the seller knew exactly what price they were selling for.

The problem seems to be that some eBay sellers appear to think that postage and packaging charging is a catch-all for bunging in some excuses to make more money.

It's not - it is for postage and packaging. If you need to be paid more money to cover other expenses that should go in the actual price of a good, especially if you sell at a set price.

I bought a CD and was charged P&P of £1.99 - for what was easily identifiable as 60p postage and a Jiffy bag costing 20p max, so 80p total. Sure, in the grand scheme of things being over charged £1.19 isn't breaking the bank- but that is a 150% profit on the postage.

This person boasts about running an eBay shop, so they know how much posting and packaging a CD costs. Every time they sell a CD they cream off an extra 150% on the postage. I think it's justifiable to call that a rip-off, even allowing them to add in a few pence more for other sundries or as a slight mark up on the packaging.

As stated above 'E-bay rules clearly state sellers are allowed to charge a reasonable fee on top of the actual postage and packaging.'

However, it would be a strange to call charging an extra 150% a reasonable fee.

It is absolutely true that I knew the charge before I bought, but I could reasonably expect more expensive Amazon-style packaging etc. and didn't know I wasn't getting that until I got the CD.

So, I left some very mild criticism as feedback in a part of eBay cunningly called Feedback and designed, yes you guessed it, for leaving feedback

Just as I made a choice when I paid for the CD, so did the seller. Their choice was to rip me off, and as part of making that choice they open themselves up to criticism.

It amazes me that someone who decides to make their postage extortionately expensive then complains when someone leaves feedback saying 'postage expensive'.

And to suggest that the feedback section is not the place to be leaving this feedback is foolish.

For those of you who said I should have included my email I sent to him after his complaint, the email that led to his tirade, I didn't include it as the blog was already getting a bit long. But here it is now:

'When someone leaves you positive feedback but makes a perfectly acceptable comment about you charging £1.99 for posting something that cost 60p second class plus 20p for a jiffy bag, don't be so rude.
I left you positive feedback and made one small justifiable comment.
Don't write at people in capitals, don't have a go at them and don't not leave them positive feedback if they paid you promptly. If you have a problem with people commenting on your postage, then don't overcharge them. Maybe I should have noticed that it was £1.99 for second class but I didn't and presumed at least first class. Your response is completely unacceptable.'

[Ann]

I saw a DVD at a reasonable price on ebay and bought it for a Christmas present. Having looked at others on there I assumed the postage would be in the region of a couple of pounds, as others were. Once I had purchased the item for £9.99 I was puzzled that the grand total was nearly £20 when I realised that the p.p. was also £9.99! I emailed the seller and said I wasn't prepared to pay that amount and we agreed to mutually withdraw the bid. He asked me to leave feedback and (because in all fairness it was my fault in the beginning for not checking) I left positive feedback and what I received back from him was so nasty that I contacted ebay immediately I was so appalled. They asked me to ask him to withdraw what he had said but to be honest I wanted no more to do with him. It was so awful that I could not bear anyone seeing it and closed my account. This with a 100% positive feedback built up over many years. It isn't fair that this man was able to do this with no comeback whatsoever. Simon, yours was nothing compared to what was said about me from a complete stranger.

[Keith]

I have to agree with the seller here - maybe he could have worded his message a bit better, but could I ask Simon how much he earns per hour, and how much he would want paying to go a mile to a post office and queue for 20 minutes?
I sell a lot of CDs on e-bay, and the cost isn't just for the postage or packing - the time involved is more valuable - they don't magically get to the post office on their own.
I personally think a bit over £1 is cheap labour for someone to poat a packet these days, especiall with a lot of post offices now being where you can only park in a paid car park.

[JohnC]

I don't think this was terribly abusive and I don't think you were right to complain about the postage after you agreed to pay it. Most sellers charge more than the actual postage cost to some extent, some more than others. If you buy the item then you have agreed to the charge whatever it is. It's the total cost that would concern me if I bought this item. As already stated you have a chance to rate the postage cost seperately as a buyer during the feedback process. Having said all this it was wrong of him to give you neutral feedback if you gave him positive.

[John]

I am afraid i have to side with the seller, as someone who sells on ebay and amazon I am sick to death with half-wits who cannot bother to read item descriptions and get the full picture before they bid.

For example I have read some of the feedback left for otherwise professional sellers on amazon marketplace (amazon marketplace is where you can buy form sellers other than amazon "used and new" )One buyer complained that the software didn't work with their system, (XP or whatever) when the amazon page clearly stated win 95/98 - I KID YOU NOT!!! This fool had left one star out of five and complained that the software didn't work with their operating system.
Whilst i have never recieved feedback quite aridiculous as that (which tops my alltime dumb feedback statements

[damien gates]

i think that sellers need some protection as well, because if you punish the sellers and they go away, then you have no ebay

[Christine]

I too have experienced rudeness from a seller on e-bay. It was soon after starting to use e-bay, I bought the item and paid immediately with paypal as advertised. What I had not noticed in small print was that she did not accept paypal from individuals, only businesses. After the rude tirade on e-mail received, I forwarded a cheque. When the item had not arrived three weeks later, I e-mailed the seller to enquire when it might arrive. I got further very rude e-mails calling me all manner of names and was informed I had been banned from buying from her again. I never did receive the item and eventually cancelled the cheque (at cost) in case she should choose to cash it at some later date. On the last date when she could place feedback on e-bay, I received a nasty negative tirade, which really reflected her own behaviour not mine. I had chosen not to provide any feedback as strictly speaking no transaction had taken place. E-bay could not, (or would not) help so I am left with her negative feedback, my only one in 4 years.

[Simon L, This is Money]

In case anyone missed it, I have added a comment above to answer some of the questions put to me.

Can I just ask all these eBay sellers one more time though:

What part of the feedback section means you aren't meant to leave your feedback there?

[Citiboy]

I've had mostly v g experience on ebay, have bought and sold cars, CDs, toys, everything really. I had one bad expeience where a painting I bought turned out to be a piece of A4 photocopy. I put it down to experience and it made me much more careful. I noticed that the vendor had thousands of emails, in which were dozens of very angry buyers - but for each negative feedback, he'd (she'd?) given negative feedback in return. I valued my 100% rating so I decided not to give negative feedback, so in this respect I think what ebay is doing is a good thing. By the way, I'd be careful about broadcasting what happened too widely - the taste police should come after you for wanting a £1.99 Prince CD anyway.

[Sophy]

Of course feedback is for comments but i really don't think it was justified to comment on p&p prices.

You call £1.99 a 'rip off' as I recall - exactly why is it? I bet the petrol to get to post office was more expensive than the actual postal price!

I used to charge postage at cost and detailed rating was 4.8 / 5 so clearly some people are still not happy! In effect I was paying to post item as paypal takes fees on total money transfered to account.
I shall be starting to charge a little extra myself now as it is obviously not appreciated by buyers so I may as well cover all my costs with p&p price paid.

[wheels460]

About time ebay is helping the buyer not the seller. Now if they would do something about the rampant fraud at least put a disclaimer in big bold type on their homepage to NEVER GIVE YOUR PASSWORD OR INFO OF ANYKIND IN RESPONSE TO AN EMAIL. I quit using ebay roughly 18 months ago because there was no way to tell if you are actually buying from a legitimate seller or a scammer.

[Michelle]

I have to agree with the seller I'm afraid.

If you had read the listing properly, then you would have seen it was going to cost you £1.99 for second class delivery. Because you overlooked this, you are now complaining.

If you had read the listing properly, surely you would have thought it was too expensive and searched elsewhere to buy the CD?

Do you complain to other companies who charge a certain rate for postage, when it is not going to cost the exact figure to post the item??

The seller isn't in the wrong, they are trying to make money, you are in the wrong for not reading the listing properly.

[Kevin Pritchard]

If you're buying something and the p&p looks a little steep, you have the option to ask the seller a question before you bid because, yes, in this capitalist, dog-eat-dog dystopia that we've created, there are plenty of sellers out there who will try and rip you off for p&p. If you're not happy with their response then it's your choice as to whether or not you go ahead and place a bid. After all, they won't be the only ones selling Prince CDs, or anything else for that matter, such is the beauty of ebay.

Making some niggly remark in the comments section of the feedback afterwards isn't really feedback "etiquette" especially when you also have the option to rate p&p costs seperately. After all, what's the point of leaving a positive feedback rating but makeing negative/neutral comments in the remarks. I am a buyer and seller with over 5 years experience and I go to great lengths to maintain my 100% positive rating. However, I know that it's only a matter of time before that's ruined by some numpty who buys something off me and leaves negative feedback because they haven't bothered to read the ad properly or tried to contact me to resolve any dispute beforehand. I suggest you try selling a few nick-nacks so that you can experience the stress and aggravation involved for yourself. Then, when your basking in the smug self-satisfaction of a succesful sale, stand by for having the smile wiped off your face as you despondently watch ebay and paypal whittle away at your hard earned cash with their fees.

[Karl]

I'm sorry to say I agree with the seller. Other comments here already make the point that it's perfectly reasonable to charge some cost over and above the actual cost of the packaging and postage, however what's not mentioned is that for low cost items, it's very difficult to make the sale worth the time and effort because eBay's charges for selling are so high.
I believe many sellers increase the P&P in an attempt to partially sidestep some of these unreasonable eBay fees.
This situation is nothing other that a manifestation of the eBay fee policy. Bottom line: trade frustration caused by eBay's greed.

On the matter of the seller's reaction, leaving neutral feedback is almost the same as negative. Anything other than positive feedback is damaging to seller reputation. I think your feedback was unreasonable and the seller was indeed vindicated, indeed by this blog no less.

[Toni]

I have to say that if you were dissatisfied with the seller you should have emailed him straight away to question the postage and packaging charges, which I think were actually quite reasonable. Also, you should have read the listing properly before bidding, as the information was clearly published and transparent.

However, I think the seller should have been a lot more professional in their response.

I have seen far worse on Ebay in the few years that I used to buy and sell there. Some people on Ebay will lie and steal from you. This particular incident, to me, was just a misunderstanding and could have been sorted out in a more amicable fashion, in my opinion.

Furthermore, I have had worse abuse and threats than that after buying a couple of 99p ebooks from some scammer with fake feedback on Ebay.

Additionally, I bought something from a woman on the American Ebay website and although she didn't have the item in stock she was happy to keep relisting and collecting money from customers until she had about 32 negative feedback comments at which point Ebay decided to finally take action after she had stolen money from goodness knows how many people. In the end, she sent me abusive emails to which I promptly told her that she was wrong to keep listing and stealing money from people when she did not have the items to sell.

Anyway, it's not just some of the sellers, buyers can be scammers as well as abusive too on Ebay.

[Simon L, This is Money]

Karl, you have the wrong end of the stick. I didn't leave neutral feedback, I left positive feedback, it was the seller that left me neutral feedback.

Once again, thanks for the comments - it's good to get an insight into people selling as a business on eBay.

I have sold things on eBay so know that it works both ways and the chunk it and PayPal takes.

My point here isn't about the P&P rip-off, I can live with that, and in answer to why it's a rip-off - charging someone 150% of the price of something is a rip-off there are no two ways about it.

My point was about the rudeness, threats and abuse recieved from a so-called professional seller. It's a two-way street. If the seller opts to overcharge someone then they also sign up for the feedback that goes with it - especially the very mild criticism I left, which let's not forget came with me also leaving positive feedback.

To respond as they did would be unacceptable if they were a private seller and is beyond comprehension when they make great play of their 'professional seller' status.

I want to see small sellers do well and will actively buy from them and support them, and I believe the vast majority on eBay are brilliant.

Anyone making a valid point to a shop or business would not expect abuse in return. If I was an eBay seller, instead of supporting this behaviour I'd look at the comments customers are making here, look at the step eBay has just had to take on seller feedback, and learn some lessons from it.

The point here to is if you want to claim the high ground through your esteemed status as a 'professional' or business man or woman, then learn to act like one.

[Fred Read]

Hi,

If you think that was rude you should try dealing with (name removed for legal reasons) , he really DOES take the biscuit!

I asked him the simplest question about one of his listings and his response was rude, almost completely incomprehensible and completely and utterly WRONG. Thankfully I realised his answer was wrong before bidding.

I then took the trouble to point out his error so he would be able to give an accurate reply if he should be asked a similar question in future and he became increasingly more abusive. Over several messages he made threats and told me to "kiss his ****ing arse", to "p*** off" and said if I dared to respond I had better give him my name and address so he could "come and sort me out in person".

Now THAT is what I call rude and abusive.

He has now started using my eBay ID in a mocking and derisory fashion in several of his listings and although I have complained to eBay several times about this semi-literate, violent and abusive person they have not pulled his listings or banned him nor will they tell me what sanctions (if any) they have taken.

I have asked them to prevent him from sending me any further abusive messages but they have refused. They have said they will do nothing to stop him from contacting me as "that is part of the open nature of eBay".

I really wish I could find someone as coherent and polite as your seller to get angry with me but somehow I always seem to find the total psycho nutters...

[David]

Don't forget that eBay allows one to reply to adverse feedback. 80 characters, same as the actual feedback, and this is displayed below the bad feedback. At least I hope that eBay are not denying sellers this outlet.
I support the seller on this issue but wish he could express himself more graciously. As a seller I price postage to cover known costs plus a small margin. As a buyer I regard postage as part of the offer and set my maximum accordingly.

[Frank]

Simon

I agree with you on this 110%. So what if the seller stated the cost of the postage and even stated it was by 2nd class that does not excuse such poor packaging etc and taking such a large profit on it. I would have rounded the 80p up to a pound and left it at that

As a second hand CD I very much doubt the seller paid a lot for it, probably picking it up either at the local re-cycle for nowt or for pennies from a boot sale. Most likely the pp covered all the outgoings and some with the price for the item being the icing on the cake so to speak.

I assume from the reply you got the seller was 'trade' in which case I cant really see your CD being the only one to go into the post that day so the 'extra' could really add up if you multiply the overcharge by the amount being sent out that week, also lowers the cost of travel to the local post office and you get even more profit!

As to adding charges etc I thought one of ebays rules forbid hiding the 'sellers' charges in the pp, or have they changed that?

[Frank]

One other thought, I very much doubt that the Tax Man is fully aware of the sellers 'other income' on ebay.... You have a name and address, all it takes is a phone call lol.....

Revenge as they say is best served cold....

[AndyMM]

Whilst he was fairly long winded in his reply, you failed to read the advert properly and the P&P charges are shown clearly in all ebay listings. He stated 2nd class, he stated the P&P charges (and 1.99 is not that unusual for a CD) so apart from pointing out your failings I do not see he did much wrong.
You should save your arrows for the real con artists out there who pretend to send out items or charge 75GBP for Postage and Packing of a watch.
As an aside I am both a buyer and seller on ebay with a total of 60 listings since 2001 :-)

[Aziz]

I'd have to agree with the majority of comments that the seller, whilst somewhat over-reacting to your feedback that his postage charges were expensive, and to your subsequent email, is in the right. You really should have read the listing properly and there is no excuse for it. It wasn't even an auction so there wouldn't have been any time constraints. If you were to have made a purchase online at any other seller then I'm sure you would have read the item description carefully to see how much it would cost delivered. £2 is a reasonable postage & packaging charge for a CD, and there are many fees to recover in this including listing, final value, paypal - on top of the P&P. There are some sellers who charge extortionate P&Ps but we are free not to buy from them. You may have dented an otherwise perfect feedback for the seller, and you would have been able to rank the various aspects of the sale in the detailed seller rating. By not emailing the seller first and leaving a postive feedback rating with a negative comment for all to see you've obviously got on the wrong side of the seller- its understandable. By writing an article and publicising this to your 1M+ readers, and your belated post-scripted attempts at justifying its publication after the comments in favour of the seller I cannot help but feel that it is you who may be blushing. It was a wise choice not to name and shame the seller. We all feel that comments made behind the anonymity of emails and usernames are personally directed but you shouldn't have let it get to you in the way it has - and passing the email round the office and writing the article would suggest it had.
For someone who works for the "financial website of the year", of all people you should remember CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!

[Dana]

I have seen so many sellers inflate the cost of shipping to 2-3 times the actual cost, and have too then gotten an item that had a cheap envelope, and cheapest shipping, yet paid a huge rate. I have pretty much stopped using ebay for both buying and selling as I expect this practice to only increase. While yes, one could argue the "extra" is for time, petrol etc.. the real reason most buyers charge huge shipping is to make up some of the fees ebay charges for posting an item, and final fees, as well as pay pay fees.

Fair - not by a long shot! And, since ebay just raised their fees yet again, I don't expect this will get better any time soon.

That being said - this seller was out of line in his or her email and comments. I would have done the same thing - it was blatently obvious you were very much overcharged. And, a lot of sellers avoid this by printing out postage directly from ebay, which allows them to not show how much they paid.

[Bob Y]

As interesting as the comments from sellers are, I find it extraordinary that anyone should try to defend what is a blatant rip-off. Wasn't the internet supposed to democratise commerce? It may have for a year or two but it is now the playground for spivs and crooks. This kind of casual rip off is the kind of crime that gave us the Rip Off Britain moniker in the first place. I trust you are all more honest with the tax office. You do declare your incomes I presume?

[James]

Author: what exactly did you expect him to say?: " eeoh, tewwibly sowwy sah, We deeply regwet your complaint. Here, have a voucher for a free CD and please do come back again. We gweatly value our customers and their views"?

Just be grateful he didn't come around your house and break your legs. Which nostalgic made-up world are you living in anyway? The 50's, when you could remonstrate mildly with someone without fear of being kicked in the head or killed? This is the noughties, and FYI, the UK lost a long time ago the civility that it was once famed for. For you to express surprise and shock at this fairly mild (and not altogether unseemly) rebuke at your complaint is astonishing: you must live in a very closeted world like some Victor Meldrew Pensioner whose life is all about taking umbrage at (relatively) mild inconveniences cos they belong to a world in which these things don't happen.

Don't blame the seller. He's behaved in accordance with the norms of the society he lives in. You haven't and you don't. Blame the society you live in.

[michael]

Ebay dealers I know never leave feedback until after they have received feedback.
The motto is: Get bad feedback, give back the same.
It's business, or so they say.

[Billy]

To be honest the fact you wrote this article about Ebay and your frankly rather tame experience shows that you are a little 'picky'! The contract is for postage and packaging( including all the time associated costs) and not just for the stamp. To be offended by the odd capital letters also indicates a preciousness which I rarely see even with little girls.
I would try and develop a more interesting consumer journalism career because having a moan at this stuff is, well, just pathetic

[Oz]

Some insightful comments from sellers here. I think if we read between the lines we should be treating 100% positive feedback with suspicion. After all noone is perfect. You have changed how I view ebay. I've since noticed this kind of footnote on seller pages. It shows that postage is an arbitrary fee and based on nothing more than extra profit.

IF YOU BUY MORE THAN ONE OF MY ITEMS FOR SALE ON THE SAME DAY THEN I WILL CHARGE 1X FULL POSTAGE COST FOR YOUR FIRST ITEM AND EACH EXTRA ITEM WILL BE CHARGED AT 50% POSTAGE COST

[Steve eBay Power Seller]

I side the the seller...

You received the goods promptly, well packaged at the advertised cost - what else do you want?

His response may be curt, but it's not abusive in any way. I really don't can't see what your problem is at all.

[Simon L, This is Money]

Once again thanks for the comments, I am intrigued by the obvious gulf between what normal people and regular eBay sellers consider acceptable behaviour.

True, this seller did not insult my mother or personally abuse me, however it is generally considered that shouting, threatening and belittling are abusive.

Can those eBay sellers taking the moral high ground against someone leaving some feedback in a feedback section answer this?

If you consider yourself a professional, why is it acceptable to respond to someone as this seller did on eBay when as an employee talking to a customer like that would get you seriously reprimanded or sacked?

Steve, for example, you are a power seller. This person shouted, threatened and then signed off as The Vindicated - how can you not see that is unacceptable behaviour?

Bear in mind, it's not just me that thinks this - I was relatively unfazed by the seller's rudeness compared to everyone else at This is Money

Also, to those who have bizarrely suggested I am in the wrong for writing something - I am a journalist, I write things. To read it and then leave a comment suggesting I shouldn't write things creates an existential minefield.

[Paul]

Your first problem is you entered into a "binding contract to purchase". That is what eBay calls it every time you click the 'confirm bid' button. Second, you're not a customer, you're a contractor. This is why all eBay buyers get miffed. It's not Amazon. You're contracting. You 100% agreed to the terms of the contract and then turned around and complained about what you just agreed to. How come no one seems to get that about eBay?

[Keir Bowden]

Personally I'd say you are both in the wrong.

The seller has enormously overreacted to a mild comment - I'm not sure it's a torrent of abuse but it's patronising and rude, which is probably as bad. While there may be many reasons for this (having a bad day, 20th person in a row moaning after the deal etc) it's probably because the seller is a bit of jerk, just like real people are outside of Ebay. The vast majority of ebay sellers aren't like this.

You are in the wrong for two reasons:
(1) You agreed the price of the deal and accepted the postage and packing charge - ebay asked you to confirm you were happy to buy and you confirmed you were, in the "confirm your bid" step. Once the item arrived you felt that you could have got it a few pence cheaper, so you decided you weren't as happy as you might be - blatant rip off is a bit strong, isn't it?
(2) You left positive feedback even though you felt you'd been ripped off. This is exactly why the feedback system in ebay is pointless - everybody is scared of retaliation, so everyone gets positive feedback and "A+++++++++++++" comments. If you really felt you were ripped off, you should have left a neutral or a neg and said why, so that the rest of the community were aware of the issue.

However, the "blatant rip off" quote seems to have crept in as you are defending yourself against other comments, so I'm assuming that you really felt that it should have been a bit cheaper, but you should also have looked properly. In that case you should have left a low rating for p+p in the detailed seller rating - this does have an effect, as those with low ratings appear lower in the default search results.

Postage and packing fees are often a fair bit higher than the price of the stamp - one reason being that the final value fee that ebay charge only applies to the item price, so its a way of avoiding a small amount of the extortionate fees that ebay charge. This is why ebay have introduced the policy that low p+p ratings will appear lower in the default search results - its nothing to do with looking after buyers and all about fee protection.

Finally, if the P+P charge had been 10p, would you have put a comment in the feedback about how they should charge more to cover their costs? Somehow I doubt it.

[Colin Baum]

Yes you are too nice - irrespective of whether you were technically in the right or wrong your mild comment didn't warrant that response - unfortunately your seller was an ignorant pig and you should have named him.

[Phil Rippingale]

Hello Simon,
I don't want to appear an apologist for bad sellers on Ebay but it appears that this seller did accurately list the postal charges and the service they would be sent by. It is the buyer's responsibility to read the terms and they decide whether to pay excessive postal charges or not. I have also learnt the hard way, like yourself, that Caveat Emptor really is the first rule of Ebay.
Regards

[Matt Mezzi]

Must say the seller is in the right there. Sellers have to cover the postage, the packaging (this includes, tape, pens,etc hence postage and PACKAGING). They must also cover the ebay fees.

They listed it would be sent by second class and like they said in their email why would you assume anything else...you even admitted you didnt read the listing first and realise that, many sellers have to deal with and lose money over buyers who are too lazy or not smart enough to read the listing. When I buy something myself I make sure I read every single letter of the listing so I know what Im getting, for how much and how fast.

You seem to be rather self important as you named and shamed and judged this person...

(Editors note: comment edited for factual reasons as it stated the author named and shamed the seller when he deliberately did not and explicitly stated so).

...if you didnt want to pay the price then dont buy. You dont go into Asda, buy something and complain it was too much because for them to transport it to the store only cost £X per item and they marked it up. You were given the total price and agreed to it so get over yourself.

At the end of the day you wanted a prince CD and agreed to pay £3.98 for one, thats exactly what you got and by the looks of it promptly. So why cant you be happy with that? Perhaps you would have been happier if the postage had cost the full £1.99 and the seller had forked out ebay and packaging costs from their own pocket. Im sure thats what any other business or high street store would do for you.

[Geoff]

Sorry, but I have to agree with the seller. When you buy on ebay you take into account the postage. It doesn't matter if the actual cost is lower than the quoted cost. I can see why the seller was annoyed. This is a classic case of not knowing how the system works.
BTW I'm not excusing bad practice on ebay, I just don't think this is that bad.

[Justin]

I've also suffered at the hands of a bad seller. I read the listing thoroughly, and knew the price and P&P, and had a best offer accepted.

My problem was that the advert was lacking some info I needed. I e-mailed FOUR times, and received not a single reply. I was desperate for the item (a new mass air-flow sensor, so made an acceptable offer.

Item arrived 2 days later- no problem. I left neutral feedback saying that it was fast and as described, but a shame they didn't respond to e-mails as fast as a confirmed sale!!

I received neutral feedback in retaliation calling me a "LIAR- no mails received and SELLERS AVOID AT ALL COSTS"!!!

I still have the mails I sent in my messages folder. I do not think that this was at all justifiable considering the amount I was spending- and the seller was oviously around, as once I made the purchase, the response was lightening fast.

I think a much better system would be to keep feedback for both sides, but to keep it hidden until both sides have left a response. Notification could be sent to the other person when one person has left feedback, either way.

The feedback is then not displayed until both sides have left it. Chances to respond still remain. This would prevent the tit for tat that some sellers seem to enjoy leaving when it REALLY is not needed.

[Roy]

P&P refers to Post and Packing.
The minimum wage is around GBP5.50, Applying a factor of 2 to allow for overheads ( Insurance, cost of carrying postal materials et al) then this becomes GBP11.
This means a cost of GBP 1.10 for every 6 minutes.
How long to get to the post office, queue and return? - you do the sums.
Regarding the discount for extra items - If the items fall into the same weight category - no extra postal charges. You may even be able to fit the two or more items into the same box.. Same time to Post etc just some extra packing required!

[Chris]

Sounds like Comic Book Guy, go on read it in his voice.

Also you both have a point, soemthing which ebay is trying to rectify with more and more advice on postage.

I havent traded on ebay in 2 years or more, I do buy the occasional book from book stores that have websites on there, including other high street shops like Schu (not correct spelling). Other wise you are trading with some ebayers as above that are not the full shilling.

I have lost my temper with one ebayer once, which ended quite well considering I nearly had him kidnapped, I'm only Joking.
One ebayer did say "I know where you live, so dont leave me negative feedback" oooh! wheres my hand bag. I was that close to visiting to find out what she wanted.

My advice ebays OK, try not to buy from sellers that can only write in CAPITALS find out at your peril.

Chris

[lorraine, lincoln]

Whilst I have to agree that the email was extremely insensitive and rude. I also have to agree that, postage and packaging for sale on ebay is dearer that just the stamp and the packet. There are also Ebay selling fees, tax, nino, paypal charges, parking charges, petrol etc and could confirm that when you total these all up etc for myself to sell and item for 99p on ebay the total costs come in far above the £1 selling price. I have found therefore that it can cost anything up to and over £1.50 to get an item to the post office so I have to add £1.50 to the 'cost of the stamp and envelope' just to get it into the postbox!!

Please bear this in mind when you buy on EBay in future.

[Joan Martin]

I stopped buying on ebay because of damaged goods, excessively high postage charges, and the incredibly arrogant rude sellers. They hold a buyer hostage with the power of feedback.

[Steve]

I was ripped off ONCE and once only when buying a very early 1900's book.

The guy listed it as 99p and I won it at 99p - Free Postage he said. Guess what the book never arrived, nor did the copy of the receipt he promised but he told me the time and post office he had posted it at. So I reported it and informed him.

I had a bucket of abuse and told I would be reported to the police for fraud claims against the Post Office. I didn't claim an amount I was asking them to look for the item. I had only paid 99p for a book worth at least £20 and was informed I was scamming.

We never left each other feedback. The Post Office could not confirm a package had been posted. I reported him anyway but nothing was done by ebay. I therefore informed the guy that if ever I saw him selling anything else on eBay I would be bidding and winning all of his auctions and wouldn't be paying for any of them until eBay banned both of us. He never did sell anymore.

The 99p did not cover his fees for eBay & Paypal & you can decide what he did with the book.

The book came up for sale again about 3 weeks later at £7.99 with £2 postage. I offered & bought it and was expecting to see the same name and address on a different eBay user, it wasn't.

I have sold many small items and always personally state FREE postage unless oversea which would be charged at cost that way no one can complain about over charging. After all Amazon is now FREE at most times.

A months worth of hassle for 99p.

I agree the Feedback System is not fair and should be hidden until both parties have contributed. Ebay do not earn their fees when it comes to sorting out problems.