This is Money Blog

Ticket to (take me for a) ride

Why, as the cost to companies of administrating ticket sales has plummeted in recent years, has the amount charged to consumers for the process soared?

You might suppose that booking tickets yourself on a website, which then sets off an automated processing and posting system, costs companies a lot less than manning box offices and phone lines. But then of course most tickets are now sold through agencies, which are parasitical, er sorry, profit-making enterprises.

Just as we've got used to being charged 20% of the cover price for the privilege of being sold tickets to various sorts of entertainment, so now the ruse has spread to train tickets. Trainline.com - the ticketing website that somehow has managed to maintain a high profile despite its user-unfriendliness - has just announced it will be introducing fees on ticket purchases.

There will be a booking fee of £2.50: it doesn't say whether this is per ticket or per booking, but you can bet your bottom dollar it's the former - which of course makes it not a booking fee but a ticket surcharge. On top will be levied the amusingly titled 'fulfilment fee'. Fulfilling the obligation to give you the ticket once it has been bought: well thank you trainline.com, you are really spoiling us. Anyway, it's £1.00 for post and 50p for picking up at the self-service machines in stations.

This might not be so irksome if it wasn't adding insult to the injury of grievously inflated rail fares. I'm frankly fed up of train operators each time they raise fares bleating about what great value their discounted advance tickets are. It's rubbish: they are rarer than the red squirrel. And twice as elusive.

Anyway, the solution is simple: don't use trainline.com. The major train operator websites like Virgin Trains and particularly National Express do a better job but aren't, as far as I know, charging for it.

If trainline.com needs to levy these fees to prop up margins and loses its customers as a result, then maybe that's the market's way of telling it that it doesn't deserve to exist as a profit-making enterprise.

- Adrian Lowery, Assistant Editor, thisismoney.co.uk

The true cost of food anyone?

My local market has a tray of strawberries for £1.

My local supermarket, Sainsbury's, has the same size tray for 'Half price'. Not £2.99 but £1.49.

For my maths, that makes Sainsbury's 50% more expensive not 50% less.

Any cynic will tell you that the recent hike in food prices is not reflected in the official inflation figures but the reality is not helped by the marketing departments at supermarkets whose job is to pull the wool over their customers' eyes even more.

I think we need to prepare for a lot more of these kinds of ruses over the coming months.

Here's some reasons why...

City focus - rising cost of food

Food prices rise fastest in 14 years

What is the real level of inflation

See what our readers think about the inflation figures

Tips for cutting your food bill

How I caught Tesco on a 2for1 sham

Tesco accused of sham 'half-price' veg

And from December 2006
Inflation 'four times' official rate

Richard Browning

My torrent of abuse from an eBay seller

The knives are out at eBay after it announced a raft of changes to its website, including most controversially the decision to ban eBay sellers leaving negative feedback.

To an extent I can understand the complaint about this skewing the system, but frankly considering the way some sellers are behaving it couldn’t come soon enough.

Ebay started off as - and often still is - a great place to find obscure stuff you want at a cheap price, but it has been swamped by people running businesses and using its anonymity to mistreat customers.

Last week, I had what is possibly the rudest, most ignorant and moronic message I have ever had the misfortune to be sent and it was all from some self-important numpty who trades on eBay and couldn’t accept the mildest of criticisms.

This took the modern day concept of threatening anti-customer service, as perfected by big companies like British Gas, BT and our banks, to a new level.

In fact, if he wasn’t a fictional character, this response could have come straight from the obscenely rude comic book store owner in the Simpsons, especially as it was signed off as The Vindicated.

I had bought a second hand Prince CD off this seller for £1.99, which had postage and packaging of £1.99 to be added on.

When the CD arrived a week later, the outside of the 20p Jiffy bag it was posted in had a postage label attached, saying 60p second class.

Now, foolishly, I hadn’t originally spotted that the P&P charge was for second class and presumed it be first class, but even if I had I could have expected a high end packaging service for the £1.39 on top of the postage.

So, when I left the seller feedback, I gave some very mild criticism. Leaving them positive feedback overall, I added the message, 'Prompt delivery, thanks. Postage expensive.'

In response to this I received only neutral feedback, despite having paid up immediately after I bought the CD, and the following message (note the rude shouting in capital letters): 'U Can't Moan Re The P/P Fee - If NOT Happy With/Preparred 2 Pay - THEN DON'T BUY’

I felt this was a bit harsh, as this clown was the one who ripped me off in the first place and this section of eBay is after all called Feedback. I emailed him back and said he should reconsider his behaviour towards customers. It was then that Mr Happy really opened fire.

I have put the message below. I sent it round the This is Money desk when I got it and everyone urged me to name and shame this halfwit and his business to our 1m-plus readers.

I have decided to spare his blushes. Maybe I am too nice – you decide:

The eBay sellers' response (spelling and grammar all his own work:)

I'm NOT your MATE (note capitals). Our comments were perfectly acceptable. Thank your lucky stars it wasn't NEGATIVE feedback. Thought we'd give you a break on that one. Feedback isn't just about how promptly a buyer pays it's about the transaction as a whole. You had no cause to complain about the p/p price. It was clearly stated in the listing & if you weren't happy with it then you shouldn't have bought the item. To openly verbalise in writing your distain about the price to the general public, something which was clearly stated & accepted by you as an appropriate amount to pay by agreeing to the purchase is in itself more than unacceptable & worthy of a return comment by us. The price reflects not just the 60p charge & 20p envelope it also includes a myriad of other expenses. If it states 2nd class then why would you assume it would be 1st class? I think you have protested far too much about something you obviously know very little about & shot yourself in the foot so to speak. Next time READ the listing. ALL of the listing. DON'T assume anything & DON'T try to blame someone else for your own error. If you're not happy with any part of a proposed transaction, question it first DON'T abuse later! Finally, I?ll leave whatever feedback I wish. It's my prerogative & right under eBay policy. Just remember that in future with regards to other transactions with sellers.
Regards,
The vindicated.......

p.s. if you're considering pursuing a pathetic tit for tat barrage of messages on this subject be warned. That's an abuse of the eBay message system & reportable to eBay which could land you with being banned from eBay completely. This is not a threat but an informative comment which a well respected, with 5+ years selling experience seller such as us(with NO OTHER COMMENTS ABOUT OUR P/P PRICES),should offer an apparent ignorant virgin buyer.....

Now, how's that for customer service? It covers rude, abusive, threatening, pompous and much more. What a nice chap, hey.

- Simon Lambert, This is Money

Useful links:

>> eBay bans sellers negative feedback
>> Is eBay turning its back on small sellers
>> This is Money readers' eBay concerns

How I caught out Tesco on a two-for-one sham

Gotcha Tesco. I have caught Tesco plugging a two-for-one offer that is a sham.

Everyone knows supermarket pricing is a dark art, but it is notoriously difficult to prove. Two-for-one offers, bottles of wine reduced from a price rarely seen, comparison price wars – they always seem iffy but can you really be sure?

Well, I have caught Tesco in the act.

Here’s how it works. I always buy butter - as I cannot stand the spreadable plastic that is margarine - and it’s always Anchor butter.

In my local Tesco, they sold Anchor butter for 88p. I am not sure why this has permeated my brain so well, when I couldn’t tell you exactly how much most other things are, but it has.

Maybe, it’s because I always buy the same thing, same size, same place, a couple of times a week, or maybe it was the whacking great big price comparison sticker next to it for a few months.
Regardless, I know it costs 88p.

It came as a surprise therefore to see a sticker go up next to the Anchor butter the other day purporting to be offering customers a good deal:

'Anchor butter, £1.22, two for £1.80'

What a load of tosh. The normal price is 88p. Either Tesco is conning its customers, or it has just whacked up the price of butter by 48%, which I find highly unlikely.

I phoned Tesco’s press office to ask them about this and offer them the chance to put their side of the story. Almost a week later they haven’t responded. It’s a fairly trivial matter – and I am sure taking over America and then the world is more important.

But this little trick doesn’t say very good things about Tesco to me.

Oh, and it doesn’t really give me much faith in Tesco’s claim that inflation in its stores was running at just 0.8% when it called for a bank rate cut this week.

Not on Anchor butter, Tesco – that either has an inflation rate of 48%, or you are conning your customers.

- Simon Lambert, This is Money

Useful links:

>> Supermarketwatch - an eye on the supermarkets
>> Tesco accused of sham 'half price' veg
>> Aldi beats supermarket giants on taste

Fraud: How I was fleeced on my bank card

I am currently watching my bank account being emptied and it's not down to overspending.

In the past I have been cynical about the threat of card fraud but now it's happened to me, it seems I was the only one who has not suffered before.

Here's what happened. I was having lunch in a restaurant on Friday. I handed my Lloyds TSB debit card to pay the bill - £32.95 - and the waitress put my card in her chip and pin machine. I tapped in my number. She told me it hadn't gone through and the terminal said she had to phone for clearance. Not having any cash on me I told her to do that: my first mistake, letting the card out of my sight.

After at least 10 minutes she returned and said the bank needed to talk to me. I followed her to the reception and took the phone. A woman at the other end said she was from HSBC and she had my bank, Lloyds TSB, on the other line and needed to verify my identity: what was my date of birth, did I share the account with anyone and what were the first and third letters of my mother's maiden name.

I thought it was odd but I was in a hurry, it was a small amount, I had been to the restaurant often and added to that, the waitresses were telling other customers to pay by cash because they had problems with their card machine. Anyway, the amount was verified and I went off in a huff, wishing I'd knocked the service charge off.

I decided to check my bank balance when I got back to the office because a conversation with my ever-cynical husband had raised doubts over whether something fishy had happened. And there it was - a £32 transaction for somewhere abroad plus a £1 handling fee.

I haven't been abroad since June and the account is in my name only. I called Lloyds and was told there were signs of fraudulent activity on my account. That £32 had come from a taxi firm in Canada. Apparently, a lot of card fraud is from Canada at the moment. I was told to destroy my card and that all was now sorted and I wasn't to worry. Unfortunately, as of today more than £720 has been taken from my acccount and although Lloyds tell me I'll get it back in 'seven to 10 days' it seems I've got at least one more fradulent transaction to go through yet.

My question is, what else could I have done? I reported my concerns about fraud less than an hour after they had happened. Yet I am still having to wait to get my money back and frankly, it could take ages. I have never disclosed my PIN. I've not used unsafe websites. I do hope that I get the funds recredited soon but at the moment, I wonder how long it will take for the Canadian fraudsters to empty my account.

- Charlotte Beugge, Deputy Personal Finance Editor, Daily Mail

>> Latest news and advice on fraud

Amazon: 'We're not just for Christmas'

Amazon founder and chief Jeff Bezos is sending out a message to the company's customers, and indeed anyone who goes to its homepage today: like goodwill to men, driving sober and puppies, it's not just for Christmas.

His open letter trumpets the virtues of Amazon's new 'Prime' membership programme. The idea, he avers, is simple: 'for a flat annual membership fee, you get free unlimited One-Day delivery on millions of eligible items'. The fee? Fifty quid a year. Well, £49, but let's add on the interest.

'If you're inclined to do the maths [yes, Jeff, I am],' continues Mr Bezos, 'that's less than the cost of 6 Express Deliveries (£8.99 each), making it a great value [sic].' If you're daft enough to use Express delivery six times a year, it just might be Jeff.

Apart from the irony that the world's biggest online bookseller really should be able to afford a decent ad-copy proofreader, there's a few things that don't add up.

Express 'One-Day' delivery is emphatically not great value at £8.99 a pop. Not in a country where first-class post should arrive in one day. But then, the only reason Amazon ever got away with charging for its 'first-class delivery', having initially sold itself on free delivery, was that it made the latter so excruciatingly slow, by waiting days and days to dispatch orders, that everyone got fed up with it.

So who knows, perhaps now it will do the same to 'first-class delivery', which is already frequently delayed by slow dispatch, in order to encourage its loyal customers on to Express delivery.

But what would really irritate me if I was gullible or wealthy enough to sign up for Amazon Prime is what appears to be reduced stocking levels. I seem to remember a few years ago there were few items that were not in stock and available immediately (and I have some obscure musical and literary inclinations).

I just scrapped an order for a handful of not-that-obscure CDs, because two of them 'will not ship for 1 to 3 weeks' and one is not available at all. This is really poor, as it's the new album by Robert Plant and Alison Krauss - a major release. I'd feel a bit cheated out of my fifty quid, personally speaking.

It appears to me that each of the virtues upon which Amazon promoted itself as a newcomer many years ago (low prices, free delivery and quick availability), has been gradually dispensed with. Then again, if the state of High Street CD retailing is anything to go by (RIP Fopp), the format is doomed - even if some people want to buy them, no one wants to sell them.

Downloads it is then!

- Adrian Lowery, News editor, This is Money

A wolf in sheep’s clothing?

Clued-up consumers have one more weapon in their armoury when they’re looking for insurance. But should they trust it?

Zuzzid.co.uk is a site that lets the public rate, and slate, insurance companies. Blurb on the site explains that ‘Zuzzid’s community helps insurance customers get the best deals by letting them help each other’.

The design of Zuzzid chimes with the current trend for simple, pared down sites with a hint of the homemade. Note the Facebook-style logo and almost amateurish typeface. It is the counter-intuitive truth of the internet these days that we are more likely to trust something if we think it’s come from one man in his bedroom, rather than a multi-national company.

Zuzzid has a tool that compares the features of different insurance products and a price comparison tool that shows you what other users actually pay for their insurance. It’s an interesting spin on the usual comparisons that list prices based on a number of assumptions, where companies can finesse their prices to appear competitive in the best-buy tables. 

So far, so benevolent.

The problem with Zuzzid is revealed in the small print at the bottom of the page – ‘© 2006 Norwich Union. All rights reserved.’

Yep, Zuzzid is paid for and provided by Norwich Union, the UK’s largest general insurer. It was launched earlier this year but unlike most of the actions of a large plc, there was no fanfare to accompany the launch of Zuzzid, no press releases from Norwich Union. It seems neither Norwich Union nor Zuzzid want to shout about the connection.

But should this alone stop Zuzzid from being a useful, trustworthy resource for consumers?

Well, while Zuzzid is paid for by Norwich Union, the site is run and monitored by web research company Virtual Surveys, who assured me that they are entirely independent of Norwich Union. Norwich Union themselves said that they have no interest in influencing the content of Zuzzid, and that the site is an exercise in gathering the genuine views of customers – theirs and others – to help improve service and generate ideas.

But how, then, should we react to the Zuzzid Top Provider League Tables that puts Norwich Union at the top of the table for motor insurance, top for life insurance, second for home insurance, and second in the overall ‘Insurance Top Six’?

Am I alone in being suspicious of user comments on the Zuzzid message boards such as -  ‘NU Direct to the rescue… unlike the other insurers I spoke to (The AA, More Th>N, Hastings Direct…) who will only honour your (no claims bonus) for 2 years of not being insured, NU Direct gives you 3 years grace!’

And – ‘I would like to big up Norwich Union “Pay as you Drive”. As someone who only drives a few times a week this has been a revolution. My insurance premium reduced by over half plus the level of cover is top notch.’

To their credit, the team at Zuzzid appears ready to discuss the independence issue openly with users, while Norwich Union points out that some traditional comparison sites are funded by insurers.

Have a look for yourself. Make your own mind up.

I’m inclined to agree with this Zuzzid user – ‘How stupid – if they are in charge why should we trust what is allowed to be written on here? If they look good everyone will think that is only coz they own the forum – if they look bad everyone will be suspicious that they could be looking a lot worse if we knew the truth about the items posted.’

Ed Monk, This is Money

Ken Livingstone - how to not ask what people want

Sadly, it seems even self-styled men of the people like Ken Livingstone fall someway short of actually asking the public what they want nowadays.

The public consultation on the emissions related congestion charging scheme that Mayor of London Ken Livingstone wants to use to impose a £25 daily congestion charge finishes on Friday October 19th.

However, despite Ken's alleged belief in delivering people's wishes, the actual process of asking if Londoners want this to happen is abysmal.

Visitors looking at either the Mayor of London's website, or the Transport for London website would not realise that they were about to lose the opportunity to comment on one of the biggest changes to life in the capital.

Nothing on the front page of either website tells you about this, and if you eventually dig out the public consultation, it falls a long way short of managing to ask the simple question - do you want this?

How the modern world works, part 297 - public consultation

Foolishly, you might imagine that a public consultation would involve a simple 'yes/no', what do you want question. But of course not.

No, instead you get a bizarre multiple choice questionnaire asking what you have done to help the environment over the past year, and then a pair of woolly questions about whether charging people with larger engine cars £25 a day to use them would be an incentive to use a lower C02 emitting car?

And that's it. A brief quiz about your bin and a, ‘Durr, of course ripping people off for driving a bigger car is an incentive not to drive one’ answer.

TFL and the Mayor of London will then use your answers to assess their own proposals - which they have already said they want to implement.

This is sadly what public consultation means nowadays. Don’t ask the public - they might say no. Instead, introduce a procedure that makes mock elections under tinpot regimes look a model of democracy.

It's unfortunate this, as hidden deep in Ken's plan is a germ of an idea. We do need to reduce emissions and as someone who cycles through London everyday I can see the benefit better air would bring.
But this plan will simply be one of the final steps in making Central London a rich man's playground.

The £25 per day charge - with no residents discount - for cars with engines over 3 litres, or that are in the highest emissions bracket, will hammer families who own people carriers, estate cars, or larger saloons and small businessmen.
Meanwhile, £6,000ish a year will only be a minor inconvenience to the Bentley brigade, that is slowly chasing the last ordinary families out of Central London.

Diversity is essential to a city's make-up, but those last remaining inhabitants of central London not on six figure salaries are being squeezed from their homes. If you're a wealthy Londoner paying the charge or buying a new less polluting car is no problem, for others - who often do only around 2,000 miles per year - this is deeply unfair.

There is also no exemption for classic cars, which are again rarely driven and also due to their extended lifespan much greener than buying a brand new Prius

It's a shame really. What we needed was a proper debate about how to deal with this, or even a genuine chance to answer yes or no. But as with the problems with bendy buses, Oyster cards, 'green' taxi filters that make them pollute more, and many other issues, it doesn't seem that the people get a say.

Don't worry you might think, I don't drive in London/live anywhere near it. But when something like this can be forced through without meaningful consultation in London, any other council anywhere can easily do the same.

And it's only a matter of time before they do.

- Simon Lambert, This is Money

Useful links:

How to get elected London Mayor - 30 minutes free parking

Congestion charge expands - money saving for the rich

Cut taxes for the super-rich and give us all a break

Good fare for the common man

To listen to some people in the media you'd be forgiven for thinking that Britain – and in particular London -- was now the best place in the world to eat. Why, with its Gordon Ramsays and Heston Blumenthals, its legions of foodies (more on this ridiculous term in a minute) and its gastropubs, it’s obviously without equal, in Europe or anywhere else.

I beg to differ.

Every sane person’s conviction that most gastropubs – talked up in London anyway by gullibly gushing publications like Time Out - are overrated and overpriced was given credence by the publishers of the Good Pub Guide this week.

And the Times restaurant critic AA Gill in an interview with the Evening Standard this week rightly asserted that London restaurants are gimmicky, pretentious and overpriced, and generally compare poorly – on value particularly -- with their Continental counterparts. And, perhaps a little uncharacteristically, he struck this note for the common man: "One of the things I love about Italy is that you know that the waiters could afford to eat the incredible food they serve. I feel very uncomfortable in restaurants that are just too expensive for the staff ever to eat in."

And he's right. Although he must spend most of his working life feeling very uncomfortable. It must be tough.

The big difference is that, except in the most touristed corners of continental Europe, you can largely wander into a decent-looking brasserie or trattoria and get a good two-or-three-course meal with good table wine for what? 20 euros? Less? If you know where to go, you'll get a great meal for that.

It’s expected that people go out to eat – it’s not an 'event' thing, an occasion that you have to consult the restaurant reviews for and phone up and book. Of course there are plenty of 'occasion restaurants' over there too; but there are many more good local eateries with good local food and wine that anyone but the poorest sections of society can afford to eat in.

And that is where we come to that dread word 'foodie'. Only in Britain would we give a name to some privileged cabal of citizens who 'like good food'. It rankles with me that the word seems smugly to adopt the practice of buying nice food and eating at restaurants as the preserve of a monied middle class.

Well of course, it largely is the monied middle class who do these things here: they are the ones who can afford to shop at Waitrose and Borough Market, and eat where the Times food supplement tells them to.

- Adrian Lowery, News editor, This is Money

Search engine shenanigans

Do you own your own name and reputation?

The new world of internet advertising has this week raised this question for me.

Our sharp-eyed development editor Richard Browning spotted on Google what appeared to be myself and several colleagues on Financial Mail posing as experts for the 'Property Network Club'.

Search 'Andrew Oxlade' on Google and you get the usual This is Money stuff in the centre, but on the sponsored links on the right, bought by anyone who wants them, you get this...(although it's been removed now)

You get the same if you search 'Lisa Buckingham' (Financial Mail Editor), 'Jeff Prestridge' (Financial Mail Personal Finance Editor) or 'Richard Browning' (This is Money).

I can assure you I have no connections with any property investment network, company or club. And I suggest you treat all offers of property riches with a healthy dose of cynicism. Read our property expert Simon Lambert's appraisal of property investment seminars (strangely they haven't 'bought' Simon's name yet).

I spoke to Vamish Patel who runs the Property Networking Club who insists he has stuck to the Google rules and merely 'bought a search term' that happens to be my name. 'There's been no attempt to make people misconstrue anything,' he says. He also says the 'financial phrases' are picked for him by a marketing company in India. 'It's just like buying a search term like Richard Branson.'

Now now, Mr Patel, flattering me with billionaire comparisons won't wash - and especially once he told me how little I'm worth...

Mr Patel said: 'Seventy people have searched "Andrew Oxlade" in the past year and six people have clicked through on the advert, and no-one has signed up. I pay 10p per click so that's cost me 60p.'

So with revenue generation of 60p a year, I won't give up the day job.

- Andrew Oxlade, Editor, thisismoney.co.uk

Useful link

> How to make money from the internet

Save me from the Cauldron of Hate

I'd like to nominate my Sainsbury's Local as the worst shop in the country. OK, I can't really substantiate that …. the worst shop that I find myself often standing in even though I and everyone I know locally loathes it with a passion.

It has virtually no loose fruit or veg, and what there is is just shoddy. It stocks the most expensive line possible in whatever you might commonly want. And every day it runs out of a selection of essentials by about 5pm – just when its rush-hour begins and harried straight-out-of-work shoppers fill the claustrophobic aisles. Soon we're all barging moodily past each other, tutting and tersely muttering 'no ******* tinned tomatoes again!?'

My housemate and I have cheerfully christened it the Cauldron of Hate.

It's the one on Battersea Park Rd (south-west London) by the way, just in case the area manager is reading – although I doubt it: he or she is probably busy conducting experiments with monkeys to devise new ways of making grocery shopping more unpleasant.

And you think I'm joking ... well maybe a bit, and only because I suspect every other Sainsbury's Local and Tesco Express provides the same 'quality of shopping'.

I put it to you: when was the last time you bought a punnet of 'ripen-at-home' nectarines and actually had one ripen on you? Did you manage to catch the six-hour window of insipid squelchyness between the three days of 'woodlike' and the onset of mould?

Could it be that they are trying to tempt us towards their wonderful 'Taste the Difference' range of nectarines? – a steal at 70p each? (Or more like 'a steel' if the last one I shelled out for is anything to go by.)

Why would a store cease stocking 500g bags of pasta (the not-very-big ones) in order to stock 250g bags (the laughably small), other than to extract more money? They look like those dinky bags of exotic pulses you see in the world foods aisle. In the world of Milky Ways, they'd be called 'Fun-size'. What marvellous fun I was having, paying over the odds for rubbish.

The most delicious thing about it all (for it is not the food), is that they are no longer cheap. That's the one thing supermarkets were good for, economy, and they’re not even that anymore! Well, not the 'convenience' ones anyway.

You see, I enjoy cooking. And I enjoy going and finding good ingredients to cook with. This is not possible in my immediate locale because we just have Tesco and Sainsbury's. Oh, and Spar. But I live and work in centralish London, so if I have the time and inclination and I remember, then I can go around to a few different shops and pick up stuff that actually tastes like what it's meant to and isn't covered in three layers of foam and plastic.

I know it sounds like such a chattering-class thing to quack on about but the supermarkets really have sucked the enjoyment out of food-shopping for me – and also created the conditions whereby small retailers can't compete or even afford premises.

I can't help looking abroad for comparisons and whether it's France, Spain or Italy, they all seem to get a better deal than us in this, as in so much else. No wonder a thousand years after the Dark Ages we're still the binge-drinking barbarians of Europe: we're better at it than food; and it helps us forget the Cauldron of Hate.

- Adrian Lowery, News editor, This is Money

Bank charges: Giving something back

This is Money is lucky enough to have some very informed and helpful members in the message boards. These volunteer consumer champions have been great in dishing out advice on bank charges.

By way of thanks, This is Money offered to pay 50p to their chosen charity each time somebody signed up to our weekly newsletter, a round-up of the best news and advice on issues such as bank charges, investment, house prices, and much more.

I'm delighted to say we had 1098 people sign up - so a cheque for £549 is winging its way to the charity - http://www.childrensholidays.org.uk/donate.html#onlinedonation

> Find out more about why we did this: original message board thread

Don't miss our full bank charges coverage

And our guide to reclaiming bank charges

- Andrew Oxlade, Editor, thisismoney.co.uk

How to get elected London Mayor - 30 minutes free parking

Becoming London’s mayor has come a long way since Dick Whittington heard the Bow Bells singing his name and turned around.

Whittington, as the story goes, was walking away from London - where he had arrived as a pauper with his trusty cat - when he heard the bells calling to him as he climbed Highgate Hill and made an abrupt about turn.

Of course, Whittington was not mayor in the same sense that Ken Livingstone currently is and Boris Johnson wants to be, he was Lord Mayor of London, a separate post that still remains as a figurehead role.

But I’m sure that Ken or Boris would dearly love to go down in history in the same way as Dick has - even if instead of a cat Ken would have a newt and Boris his bike.

So, here’s my suggestion of a sure-fire vote winner for whichever of the sabre-rattling duo want to make London their own:

30 minutes free parking.

It’s a simple plan – easy to implement, bound to be popular with a lot of ordinary Londoners and could blaze a trail for common sense throughout Britain.

Cars can be parked in any space, be it residents’ bay, public car park, or metered area for 30 minutes for free. After that parking wardens can give them a ticket.

Residents will still be able to find spaces to park, as people will not be able to park beyond half-an-hour, small businesses will benefit from shoppers enjoying the same privileges they get at the supermarket, and people can regain the right to nip into a shop and buy something without getting a £60 fine.

The only people who will be affected are parking wardens, who will now have to go back to the way things used to work before the current insanity took over. In those days, wardens tended to write down people’s number plates and give them a bit of leeway before slapping on a ticket.
The 30-minute rule will not apply to single or double yellows and any council seeking to extend a yellow line area will have to justify it and then put it to a local vote.

I can’t see a single reason why everyone can’t have the right to park for half an hour and it would be the biggest boost we could give to local shops. Any environmental concerns about increased car use would be offset by less people driving to out-of-town supermarkets with their free parking.

Parking restrictions are meant to be for the benefit of local residents and businesses – at the moment they penalise them - so how about it Boris or Ken?

After all nowadays if Dick Whittington was travelling up Highgate Hill, he’d probably get a parking ticket while he was pulled up, mulling over whether to turn back or not.

- Simon Lambert, This is Money

PS. There’s a second part to this vote winner that could be implicated at a later date - make traffic wardens pick up litter while they are walking round too.

More:

Cost of parking rockets

Tycoon says £80,000 car in pound is good value compared to London parking

Councils banned from setting ticket targets

Make airlines take responsibility for lost luggage

I've always found it amazing the way that airlines are able to get away with losing people's baggage yet not taking any responsibility. I spent a good portion of last Monday trying to sort out the mystery of the missing for suitcase for a friend of mine from Australia who is travelling through Europe for the summer. She flew with Easyjet from Gatwick to Nice on August 3, and, like so many other holidaymakers, her bag didn't arrive in France with her.

Four days later she received a call from someone at Gatwick Airport saying the bag had been located and was being passed over to the care of Easyjet to be forwarded onto Nice. By last Monday it still hadn't arrived, there was no record of where it had been sent or who had phoned her a week earlier and Easyjet were at a loss to explain where it was. Easyjet said their contact at the airport who usually deals with these things was on holiday, the deputy was at a conference in Edinburgh and they were 'at the mercy of the baggage handling company'. There was nothing to be done, they said, except sit back and 'wait for it to turn up'.

It's simply not good enough. While Easyjet was milling about making excuses about this being an 'isolated incident', their passenger was stuck in France, after 11 days of having none of her clothing or personal belongings, her holiday in tatters and out of pocket. She wasn't really in the mood for continuing to "sit around and wait for it to turn up". 

Finally, I phoned the Easyjet press office on her behalf and told them I was vastly unimpressed by their appalling display of customer service and their complete incompetence when it comes to reuniting lost bags with their desperate owners. When I said I would publish a blog on This is Money, Easyjet finally sprung into action. The bag was located at Gatwick on Monday afternoon and it was finally reunited with its owner last Wednesday - nearly two weeks later.

Is it a great surprise though? Her holiday dramas emerged amid news that insurance companies are seeing a vast increase in the number of claims for lost baggage. And it's ultimately up to travellers to ensure that have proper insurance too. Airlines are able to pass the buck on this one.

As an aside, it's extraordinary how the threat of adverse publicity spurs big business into action - a desperate person without luggage for nearly two weeks is not enough. In fairness to Easyjet, this is a common scenario when we try to sort out our readers' customer service problems. It's a generalisation, but whether we're dealing with banks, insurance providers, utility companies, or virtually anyone else... often the only thing that will get a situation resolved for the poor customer is a call to the press office.

Easyjet apologised and offered to refund all the extra expenses she has incurred as a result, as well as offering her a free return flight.

- Sascha Hutchinson, This is Money

Useful links

• REPORT: Your rights if your bags go missing
• TODAY'S NEWS: Travel claims soar after BA baggage mess
• TRAVEL INSURANCE: Search for a policy that will compensate you if your bags going missing.

Would British Gas make you leave the country?

'That's it, I'm leaving this country.' No it's not me, although I can often think of the advantages of living somewhere with a pay-off for the daily grind.

A city near the mountains where I can snowboard at the weekends; a place near the sea where you leave work at 6.30pm and spend an hour on the beach; a spot where I could go surfing before work (although that's unlikely, as I barely manage to wake up before work.)

No, 'That's it, I'm leaving ' paraphrases the comments we get regularly at This is Money when we run a story that people feel means they are getting ripped off.

The latest 'I'm off' comments have arrived on Ed Monk's story about energy companies being given permission to lock people into long-term deals.

I sincerely doubt anyone annoyed by the hugely profitable, but highly annoying businesses that run our energy companies will actually leave the country because of this. But when I saw this news I had to ask myself, 'What are Ofgem doing?'

Essentially it is impossible to live in this country without electricity or gas. In fact, as some of the comments on a previous blog I wrote about British Gas and Tony Hetherington's column show, even if you try and live without it they will still charge you.

So, gas and electricity are a necessity and prices have been going up. Fair enough, energy is becoming an expensive commodity, but time after time the customer is getting stung for companies' ineptitude.

If there is one thing we get a lot of complaints about at This is Money, it is the sheer incompetence of energy firms, so what is the regulator Ofgem's response? It's going to let them force long-term contracts on people.

Currently energy firms cannot make someone stay beyond four weeks. From now on they will have mortgage lender/ broadband/mobile phone company powers to make you take a long-term contract and pay it up if you leave.
Now I have some experience of this with British Gas. I can say - using fair comment - that they are the most incompetent, moronic and staggeringly stupid company I have ever had to deal with.

This is a company which told me it is okay to send out letters to people threatening bailiffs, disconnection and court while trying to sort out problems because people should know to ignore them.

The only good thing about my relationship with British Gas was I had the power to tell them I was leaving with no penalty.
Now, thanks to a body meant to look after the consumer, that is gone.

Whatever way Ofgem dresses this up, I cannot see any advantage to the consumer - it has handed the balance of power to businesses the customer is already unhappy with. Well done Ofgem.

I won't be leaving the country. There hasn't been quite enough straws to break this camel's back yet, and I think I live in the best city in the world. But you can forgive people for making the threats, however idle. If you're going to get treated badly, a pay-off whether it be Mediterranean, Alpine or even sunshine would be nice.

- Simon Lambert, This is Money

Useful links:

Could you get cheaper energy bills?

My British Gas nightmare: Customer service hell

British Gas - institutionally moronic

And so farewell dear pint and fag

The nearer we have come to the smoking ban, the more angry about it I've suddenly become. So I'm going to get it off my tarry chest.

Now, I accept the arguments about the health dangers of passive smoking and the inadequacy of current arrangements in most pubs and restaurants. A ban for all places in which food is served makes sense: I almost always duck out of restaurants anyway for my pernicious post-prandial puff, even if they permit smoking. As for most other public buildings: I can't really think of many which would currently allow you to smoke anyway.

Denying pubs and most particularly private social clubs the choice of designating themselves as venues that permit their customers to smoke is an interference in the free will of both business and individual - that is without doubt. The question is, is it justified?

Some forms of paternalism are both sensible and necessary: the seatbelt law for instance. It has an obvious and undeniable benefit to everyone who drives and it imposes only a negligible restriction on individuals' lives. I'm not swooping in from the wild-eyed fringe of libertarianism.

There is only one meaningful criterion in the smoking debate: no one who does not want to breath in cigarette smoke should be forced to, or even be put in a position where it's likely. Great, fine. This does not necessitate a blanket ban.

A pub or club should be allowed to designate itself a smoking venue. Non-smokers who apply for a job there, or enter the building, are fully aware it will be a smoky environment. They will do so of their own free will. They have made an adult decision that they don't mind the smoke - or at least that they they are prepared to take the negligible risk of impaired health from a few hours' passive smoking.

Those who don't like smoke will have a massive choice from the vast majority of venues that will become 'smoke-free' (god, I loathe the unutterable smugness of that phrase).

People choose to be firemen, people choose to work in zoos, people work on oil rigs and in mines - dangerous places. No, I take that back, they're not dangerous places. Iraq is a dangerous place, the Colombian border with Bolivia is I believe a dangerous place, copper mines in Brazil are probably a bit dicey.

But what we think of as 'dangerous' workplaces in Western societies actually pose negligible risks - getting into a car knocks them all into the shade. People make a rational adult choice that they think the benefits of working there outweigh the risk of harm.

No one thinks the state should ban zoos from having chimps because they might take a dislike to the bloke in the hat and give him a good mauling. I don't think the chances of suffering health problems from passive smoking are so much greater - so why all of a sudden do we think the state can interfere in the way millions of people enjoy themselves?

Our society appears to be succumbing to certain trends: a new intolerant puritanism, a sort of infantilisation, and a slightly miserable submissiveness to an ever-more overbearing and socially controlling state. And some people call that progress.

Adrian Lowery, News editor, This is Money

Easyjet, cancellation and travel insurance claims

The Hazell family is currently rather irritated with Squeezyjet. I'm normally a great fan of this low cost airline. It's efficient and you get what you pay for. I'll have no truck with people who turn up just before check in closes and then moan that they can't sit next to their nearest and dearest. You know how the system works and if you can't bear to be parted for a couple of hours then get there earlier!

So what's my problem? Well, my son's back is in plaster and his consultant says he can't fly so we've had to cancel our holiday.

So I log on to the website and search for the cancel button. I'm not expecting any money back, you understand. I just want to cancel and get a letter (for which I'm willing to pay a modest fee if necessary) confirming it so I can make a claim on my travel insurance.

There's no way to cancel online so I send an email. The auto response doesn't answer my query neither does the next email to arrive which, bizarrely, apologises for the long wait. In fact I have waited mere minutes and this is clearly a copy of a response sent to someone else in relation to a completely different question.

So I then phone and am told that I'm not allowed to cancel the booking and must become a no-show. Who, precisely, does this benefit I wonder?

I must wait another eight weeks before I can make an insurance claim. But from Easyjet's point of view there were 10 of us on this flight in school holidays. A return to Portugal on our flights is currently selling for £218.98 plus taxes, so that's more than £2,000 worth of seats they could resell if they accepted our cancellation.

There's also the not insignificant fact that they are sitting on our taxes. As I said we don't want a penny back from them (except the taxes) we just want to have a letter confirming we've had to cancel.

I know their aim is to cut out unnecessary admin but   I really can't see how anyone benefits from this policy.

- Tony Hazell, Money Mail Editor, Daily Mail

Other blogs...
> BA lost baggage... and customer service goes missing too
> Now Ryanair charges for NOT taking a bag
> Overdue airline compensation rules
> Don't cry for me Argentina Airlines

And advice...
- The latest advice on travel insurance and holiday money

There's no such thing as a free pay-as-you-go upgrade

Technology is the scam artist's best friend nowadays.

While I am sure there are still a wealth of grifters out there working cons face-to-face, the automatic choice for the enterprising scammer nowadays must be the internet and mobile phone networks.

And while the advice is run a mile if anyone contacts you by email, text or phone call and claims to be offering you something too good to be true, there's a natural temptation to want that good deal to be true.

Two days ago I had one of those moments. A message arrived on my Orange pay-as-you-go mobile, promising me the holy grail for us pre-pay cheapskates - a phone upgrade.

It said: Orange customer. You may now claim your FREE CAMERA PHONE upgrade for your loyalty. Call now on 0207 153 9153. Offer ends 12th June.T&C's apply. Opt-out available.
Sender:UpgrdCentre

For a brief time I honestly thought Orange was genuinely rewarding me for being too lazy  to seek a better deal for the past however many years. And then the alarm bells rang. These were the tell tale signs:

1) Orange love to bombard customers with pointless messages, but they always begin Hi from Orange and the sender is always Orange.

2) Mobile phone companies are not in the business of rewarding pay-as-you-go customers for their loyalty - they might give you a free phone, but they want an 12/18-month contract in return.

3) In order to get this free upgrade you rang a normal 0207 phone number. Everyone knows big business dumped normal phone numbers years ago to milk customers dry with 0845 numbers.

Interested to see what the scam was, I gave the number a call. There was a telltale click, the fuzzy sound of a long distance line and the chirpy voice of an Indian worker (they tend to be a lot friendlier than anyone on the end of a UK phone). He asked me for my phone number. I asked him who he was and why I was texted? And while I couldn't get the full details of what whoever he worked for is trying to do I gleaned the following:

• The company is called CNT
• They bought the numbers for Orange customers from a source they won't divulge
• They are not in the UK, but won't say where they are based
• They pass on your details to a third party who then might offer you an upgrade

I don't know whether this is an outright scam to get people's personal details or one to coax people on to contracts through third party suppliers. It is however to be avoided at all costs. Remember there's no such thing as a free lunch/pay-as-you-go upgrade/lottery ticket/inheritance from a Nigerian prince.

- Simon Lambert, This is Money

Useful links:

Broadband, phones and TV news and advice

Whole Foods Market is here... and M&S is scared

The opening of Whole Foods Market has been keenly anticipated by us here at This is Money. The store is just below our building and we've been wondering what on earth they've been doing that meant it would take a year to refit. So when it opened on Wednesday several of us went down to the store in our lunch hour to check it out. We were very excited by the free cheese samples, gobsmacked by the enormous wine selection and terrified by the fact that a pork pie costs £6. 

But most interesting was the reaction by M&S, which is just on the next block. Suddenly there were green t-shirt'd employees frolicking up and down Kensington High Street offering free fruit salads (which we also sampled) and scratch cards and attempting to usher people into the store. The tills are fully staffed and there are signs up lauding M&S's green credentials. It's amazing how a bit of competition spurs business into action.

I've never been a big fan of M&S food stores. While it's true that these days I occasionally visit two of them - near home and near work - traditionally I've shunned them for being ridiculously overpriced and for their excessive packaging. Pieces of fruit are invidividually wrapped and vegetables packaged in their own special containers of three or four. It seems crazy for a store so keen to market its green credentials. As it happens, I also object to queuing for ten minutes to buy a sandwich, although this has improved in the past months.

It will be interesting to see what other changes M&S implement now that Whole Foods Market has finally arrived. But at least the queues might be a bit shorter.

- Sascha Hutchinson, This is Money

Useful links

• Organic store is problem for supermarkets
• US food store to cause stir on UK High St
• TIPS AND ADVICE: Be a caring consumer

Plastic bags: Help me tackle the supermarkets

I'm a big fan of Ocado, which delivers Waitrose shopping to your door.

It's free for orders over £75 and if you shop, and then don't order for a few weeks, they will send you discount vouchers or codes entitling you to £10 or £15 off or 10% or 15% off.

This is exactly the sort of big business marketing ploy that shrewd consumers should take advantage of.

However, I have a gripe - every delivery seems to come with an annoying number of carrier bags (that come within reusable plastic boxes).

I complained to Ocado and this was the swift response (see below). You can help encourage Ocado to improve their polluting ways by also emailing your disapproval to them.

Dear Mr Oxlade,

Thank you for your email.

I am sorry to hear that we have used so many carrier bags in your order. We are keen to limit Ocado' impact on the environment as much as possible. Recently we have redesigned the container that the carrier bags sit into, dividing them into three sections so the bags sit upright and can be packed more easily in our warehouse. This in turn should also reduce the number of bags used in each container to a minimum.

I have also forwarded your comments to the warehouse manager. They are able to bring this to the attention of the supervisors in the warehouse so that we can monitor the amount of bags being used.

Our existing Ocado bags use approximately twenty-five percent less raw materials than the previous bags and are easier to store for future customer re-use.

There are currently no plans to remove carrier bags from the delivery process completely.

If we can be of any further help, or you have any further comments or suggestions, then please contact us by e-mailing ocado@ocado.com, or by calling us on 0845 3991122 or 0845 6561234 (8am-11pm Mon to Sat, 12-8pm Sun), seven days a week.

Yours sincerely.

Nathan xxxxxx
Ocado Customer Service Team

If you want your consumer power to improve the world, keep an eye on the advice and news in our Caring Consumer section.

- Andrew Oxlade, Editor, This is Money

Switching is great - But why all these problems?

While it's a good idea to switch energy suppliers, it seems to throw up a huge number of problems.

Money Mail has written on the customer service problems at British Gas, many of which can be blamed on its computer system not accepting transfers properly. But it's not just BG. I persuaded my 70+ widowed mother to move her gas and electricity last year and frankly, wish I'd never done so.

While the gas went through easily and with no problem, the electricity has been a nightmare. She moved from EDF to Atlantic and, as far as we knew, it all went through OK - eventually. There had been problems with a mythical second meter which were eventually cleared up and from December, her direct debits with EDF were stopped and she started paying Atlantic instead.

Last month she received a confusing letter from EDF which basically said that she owed it money, but not to worry, she should carry on with her direct debits as usual. Difficult considering she wasn't paying them. I emailed them but got rebuffed because I wasn't the account holder.

So I rang up instead and pretended to be my mother instead - and was told that there was no problem, it would write to confirm this. The next letter of course said nothing of the sort - it just said that as direct debit payments had stopped, it would bill quarterly instead.

I rang, again pretending to be my mother, and was told I should ignore that letter, it didn't mean anything. I just wonder what the next mail will bring.

- Charlotte Beugge, Money Mail

PS - Get our latest advice on whether to switch your energy supplier here.

SCUM-watch part one: ING Direct savings rates

'I think', blasts ING Direct on giant billboards across the capital's rail network, 'finance should be clear.'

And so do I, ING. So do I. That's why I'm proud to work for This is Money, where we keep constant tabs on the increasingly outrageous behaviour of the financial services industry.

And why today I launch my new acronym, Spectacular, Cynically Unrepresentative Messages - or SCUM for short - and my new sporadic blog category: SCUM-watch.

Part one: ING Direct

OK. Let's look at the evidence and see just how clear ING is about finance - in ING's own words.

12 May 2003 (Bank rate, formerly base rate: 3.75%)
ING promises high interest account
We said: 'Global banking group ING has launched in the UK with a direct savings account that pays interest of 4.22% whatever the size of your balance.'
ING (Lindsay Sinclair, chief executive of ING Direct UK) said: 'This is not an introductory rate. We have low overheads and no branches and this saves us money. We pass those savings directly to our customers in the form of high interest rates.'
I say: If it looks too good to be true it usually is.

15 July 2005 (Bank rate: 4.75%)
ING announces it is to cut its savings rate to 4.75%
We said: 'ING Direct is to cut the rate it pays to savers from 1 August. The annual equivalent rate is being clipped by 0.25% from its current 5% before tax to 4.75%.'
ING said: 'ING Direct remains totally committed to providing its customers with a permanently good rate.'
I say: Oh, really?

1 August 2005
ING's new lower rate of 4.75% is introduced
We said: 'Critics warned it was a ploy when ING bank launched its flagship savings account with a chart-topping interest rate. Customers would be lured, they said, then the rate would be cut... ING's rate, always higher than the Bank of England base rate and substantially higher than most rivals' offerings, attracted hundreds of thousands of customers within its first weeks... But the cut from 5% to 4.75% means the account will vanish from the best-buy charts. ING's rate will for the first time equal the Bank's base rate.'
ING said: It was responding to competition and was committed to offering competitive rates.
I say: yada yada yada.

13 December 2005 (Bank rate: 4.50%)
ING Direct cuts rate to 4.5%
We said: 'ING Direct is to cut its savings rate from 4.75% to 4.5%, despite the Bank of England keeping rates on hold last week. The cut also follows an advertising blitz featuring the 4.75% rate and urging customers to sign up. More than 1m savers have an ING Direct savings account.'
ING (Lindsay Sinclair) said: 'Decisions like these mean we can run our business in a way that will allow us to continue to offer all our customers a consistently good savings rate - while avoiding withdrawal penalties, or short-lived headline-grabbing rates for new customers, as some banks do.'
I say: Oh please.

27 November 2006 (Bank rate: 5.0%)
Blow to ING Direct savers
We said: 'More than a million customers of ING Direct have been told their savings rate will not be changing, despite the hike in rates from 4.75%; to 5.0%.'
ING said:  'While some people may be willing to follow headline-grabbing rates, we know from talking to our customers that the majority prefer their savings to be earning consistently and want to relax knowing they don't have to constantly check best-buy tables.'
I say: Yawn.

29 November 2006 (Bank rate: 5.0%)
Has ING Direct lost its edge?
We said: 'ING Direct has turned its back on its 'no hidden catches' policy by launching two savings accounts for existing customers that do not allow you to access your money without penalty'
ING said: Its philosophy is 'to offer consistently great value for everyone with no catches and no hassle. We aim to make our products as straightforward as possible so you can make the most from your money with the minimum of fuss'.
I say: Lah, lah lah, lah, lah.

1 February 2007 (Bank rate: 5.25%)
ING Direct keeps rate at 4.75%
We said: 'Millions of ING Direct savers suffered another blow today when the bank announced it would not raise the rate on its original savings account in response to last month's bank rate rise.'
And we added: 'This is a disappointing move by ING Direct. When the bank entered the online savings market it consistently topped the best-buy tables for its high rate and was praised for providing an account with no hidden catches. However, having built up a solid customer base, it appears to be relying on the apathy of savers to stick with it and not switch to a different bank where they will earn a higher rate.'
I say: There's really not a lot of point asking ING to comment.

20 April 2007 (Bank rate: 5.25%)
ING Direct slashes savings rate
We said: ING Direct is dropping the rate on its Websaver account [a new account created for existing customers to prevent an exodus] to 5.5% from 5.65%, just a fortnight before the Bank of England is expected to raise interest rates to their highest level for six years.
ING said: 'We need to price our rates at a level that we can sustain.'
I say: Oh stop it. That's enough.

16 May 2007 (Bank rate: 5.50%)
For a bit of balance I should mention that ING is now increasing the rate on its instant saver account from 1 June to a still-below-Bank Rate 5% and has in the meantime launched a 6% cash Isa and a fee-free no-nonsense flexible mortgage. But with a track record like theirs what can I say?
I say: Nothing.

But on the subject of acronyms - I wonder what ING really stands for? Anyone...

Richard Browning - This is Money

Related stuff
Find the genuine best savings rates - our unique service
Virgin Media's new mission statement?
Should you trust ICICI Bank?
First class squirming from the First Direct boss

ING update...

16 May 2007
Angry ING savers pull £3bn
We said: Customers at ING Direct removed £3bn from the savings giant after it failed to pass on base rate increases, figures showed today.
ING said: 'Are there better rates out there? Yes there are.'

PC World's adventure shopping experience

When you buy something in a shop what do you expect?

If I've picked it up from a normal full-price display, I expect a brand new item with everything included, priced as advertised.
Apparently this is not what you should expect at PC World.

Nope, according to PC World, in Kensington High Street, you can possibly expect items that have been returned to the shop and items with crucial parts missing, and it is up to the customer to discover these hidden amid normal full-price items and then ask for some money off.

This daredevil attempt to turn traditional shopping on its head came to light when I went into the nearby PC World to buy a wireless router for my broadband connection.

To be honest, I knew I shouldn't go into PC World. Mainly because it has a weird guard tower style arrangement, where a man sits up on a pedestal with his back to the doors watching each criminal...sorry customer...as they walk round the store.

But I've been meaning to sort out wireless internet for ages and it was convenient, so I went in.

I found the display, chose my router and took it to the till, where the cashier tried to scan the barcode. It didn't work, so he continued trying to scan it repeatedly for about three minutes.
Eventually, I said: 'Shall I go get another one from the shelf?'.
He nodded in agreement and at this point I not